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#77224 - 05/16/01 09:53 AM 100 A feeders
sparky66wv Offline
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Registered: 11/17/00
Posts: 2232
Loc: West Virginia
This has been beat to death in Mike Holt's BB and the DIY BB, but I'm still confused.

My supplier only carries #4/0 and #2 Al SE and SER cables... no other sizes. I realize that the supplier is not infallible...

Bidding around here is hard enough, I can't compete with the ignorant! Just what the heck am I supposed to do with 100A Sub panels? #3 CU THHN in pipe? #3-3 w/G Cu NMB cable (which is unavailable here)? The supplier is clueless, I just called him...

I've been through about $10K of lost bids this week mainly due to sticker shock...

Any venture capitalists out there? I promise not to spend frivolously like the tech companies did...

If not...Anybody wanna buy a slightly used Electrical Business? Just Kidding folks...




[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 05-16-2001).]
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#77225 - 05/16/01 10:12 AM Re: 100 A feeders
Mike Offline
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Registered: 02/21/01
Posts: 62
What wiring methods have you used in the past to install subpanels? You could order what you want to use and keep it in shop stock.
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#77226 - 05/16/01 10:15 AM Re: 100 A feeders
sparky66wv Offline
Member
Registered: 11/17/00
Posts: 2232
Loc: West Virginia
Oh... This is in reference to Table 310-15(b)(6),

100A feed through discos are unavailable here, we generally use load centers for discos (raintite). Does the feeder from the first load center (being used as a disco) to the second (being used as the main panel) qualify as a service feeder, or is it a sub feed??

BTW the EI passed a similar install just a few weeks ago... It was fed from a 200A panel with #2 SER (most around here would have used SE) and was obviously a sub panel.

Would using a main breaker in the sub panel instead of a MLO make any difference in the definition of the intended use of the cable?

This code loop could triple the price of a sub panel install for me and put me out of the competition, I can't be the only one complying with codes that "no one has heard of" around here... and expect to make money, or even get the jobs in the first place!
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#77227 - 05/16/01 10:22 AM Re: 100 A feeders
sparky66wv Offline
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Registered: 11/17/00
Posts: 2232
Loc: West Virginia
There appears to be some controversy on whether or not #2 SER is allowed in a sub feed... Sorry I didn't make that part clear...
http://www.mikeholt.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000545.html
http://forum.doityourself.com/showthread.php?threadid=58652



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 05-16-2001).]
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#77228 - 05/16/01 01:51 PM Re: 100 A feeders
sparky Offline
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Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5303
oh boy,
here we go...someone call for more tankers...

personally, i'm confused as to which code overrides which, and what changes have taken place ( or are going to..)

some articles to consider;
T310-15(b)(6) and whatever the 99' change was
338-4(a) brings you to;
336 A&B ends up in
336-26 , note the 60 deg deal...
110-14(c) honorable mention.....
T-310-16 why not....

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#77229 - 05/16/01 02:34 PM Re: 100 A feeders
sparky66wv Offline
Member
Registered: 11/17/00
Posts: 2232
Loc: West Virginia
Whoa... looks like that leaves us with a #1/0 Al Sub Feeder for 100A...

Steve or Bill... you got the ROP's on this?



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 05-16-2001).]
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#77230 - 05/16/01 03:54 PM Re: 100 A feeders
sparky Offline
Member
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5303
it would be at;
http://www.nfpa.org/Codes/National_Electrical_CodeR_NEC/Proposals/necpdf/A280-310.PDF

go down to about pg 65 ( Adobe Acrobat file)

points of interest;
Log 3908(accept) - to exempt 336-26 in T310-15(b)(6)
Log4200(reject) substantiation states;
[ "99' wording schizophrenic" ]
i sense the CMP's intent here, and a little frustration.....
Log 2895(reject) looks like a table for ampacity?>>>....

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#77231 - 05/16/01 07:25 PM Re: 100 A feeders
golf junkie Offline
Member
Registered: 04/22/01
Posts: 507
Loc: York, NE

Just what the heck am I supposed to do with 100A Sub panels? #3 CU THHN in pipe?


That's what we typically do. MLO sub-panel unless the sub is in a separate building.

I don't follow the other concerns, questions that lead to the 1/0 AL. We don't use AL for sub panels unless we are going underground.

GJ


[This message has been edited by golf junkie (edited 05-16-2001).]
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#77232 - 05/17/01 01:54 PM Re: 100 A feeders
sparky Offline
Member
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5303
GJ;
the article in question is not entirely clear as to where #2 for 100A ,4/0 for 200A can be run in a dwelling.

the code had a 99' change, and is apparently going to have a change or two in 02'.

I'm confused on what has changed and why...

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#77233 - 05/17/01 08:37 PM Re: 100 A feeders
sparky66wv Offline
Member
Registered: 11/17/00
Posts: 2232
Loc: West Virginia
Another point, probably only a WV thing, but how am I supposed to pipe in and use 3 #3 THHN copper for the feeders AND a reduced ground and compete with those using only a #2 Al SE (NOT SER)?!??! Please realize that there is a major cost difference here...And please find me a loophole! (I'll use SER though...)

BTW I've lost 3 of 3 bids the past week, 2 due to "unfair" competition like I mentioned above... the third due to "Sticker shock"...
I don't mind it so bad when I actually bid against electricians...
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