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#75997 - 10/10/00 05:59 AM What is a "Qualified Person"
Webmaster Offline

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Origionally posted by Joe Tedesco:

Joe Tedesco posted 10-07-2000 06:11 AM ET (US)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please expand on the term defined in the NEC and OSHA as "Qualified Person" as described in the NEC?

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#75998 - 10/18/00 05:12 PM Re: What is a "Qualified Person"
sparky Offline
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Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5545
The term "Qualified Persons" is defined by the state or juristiction you live in, the exact terminology shall be convoluted in direct proportion to the amount of (or lack of) bureaucracy responsive to said locale.
The legislation of the latter is equative of those who lobby for loose restrictions vs. the statistical morbidity and mortality of so called "Qualified Persons" . So it is in the "Home Depot, Time Life" mentality of todays market. -------------Sparky

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#75999 - 10/18/00 07:36 PM Re: What is a "Qualified Person"
Bill Addiss Offline
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Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 4196
Loc: NY, USA
Sparky,

wow! Can you say that 3 times fast? - just kidding \:\)

The code - and many other things of this type, is often criticized for being too wordy (lengthy). I would like to see some simple - yet accurate definitions of important terms that are used. I do not know what that would be - or even if it is possible.

How would you describe, or define a "Qualified" person in terms easily understandable and not requiring more definitions or including terms not already acceptably defined? - See even the Question is "wordy" \:\)

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#76000 - 12/03/00 06:57 AM Re: What is a "Qualified Person"
Joe Tedesco Offline
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Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 3325
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts USA
See 70E for qualified and unqualified persons 1-5.4.1 Qualified Persons.


[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 11-18-2002).]
_________________________
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

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#76001 - 12/03/00 02:50 PM Re: What is a "Qualified Person"
Bill Addiss Offline
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Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 4196
Loc: NY, USA
Joe,

This sounds like a pretty good - yet vague definition. Who is it though that gets to determine if someone meets these qualifications? I can see that sucessful completion of recognized training courses could contribute torwards this, but the evaluation of someones decision-making process seems like a judgement call and where does that come from?

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#76002 - 12/05/00 07:41 PM Re: What is a "Qualified Person"
doc Offline
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Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 119
Loc: Texas
What is really sad is just because you pass the what ever test given by the who ever qualified person is does not mean you know what you are doing or that you will teach someone else the correct way.
The term qualified is really way to open ,but yet if you make the wording to strict it would limit a lot of learning,as some of us are self taught and some of us know our limits ,but have seen lots of casses where the word qualified was thrown out with the trash on some people
_________________________
MAY THE SUN SHINE ON YOUR FACE IN THE MORNING AND YOU AWAKE WITH A SMILE

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#76003 - 12/06/00 10:59 AM Re: What is a "Qualified Person"
gpowellpec Offline
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Registered: 12/06/00
Posts: 128
Loc: Irving, Tx USA
Everyone knows "interpretation" of any term is necessary for lawyers to be able to make millions. As qualified gets more defined, employers are required to do more and more training to lessen their liability in an accident. Therefore, in order to meet their training requirements, they are more and more turning to training institutions. When the litigation occurs, the employer can point the finger at the training company. The training company then has to defend its program. The employer is ultimately liable, but the more entities that can be dragged into the case the longer it will drag on and the more money for the lawyers and the higher insurance premiums will rise for all imvolved. Think about this when you are sleeping through another training program where you get a certificate or sign an attendance roster. Those pieces of paper are documenting your road to being qualified. Why are you there? To provide the company with ammunition against you in the event of an accident? "I slept through that part" doesn't help your case or your survivors case very much. Think about this as an instructor when your class is boring and the students can't see why they are there. The student should have a different and more personal reason for being there than to meet a legally enforcible definition of "qualified." The instructor must be able to get this accross to the student.

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#76004 - 12/07/00 12:32 AM Re: What is a "Qualified Person"
Bill Addiss Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 4196
Loc: NY, USA
You make a good point. I'm not going to ask you what your definition of a qualified person would be, (but if you have one please share it with us) What would you consider the most important area(s) of instruction necessary for a "qualified person" and can you recommend a good reference source(s) of information on that subject?

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#76005 - 12/07/00 07:43 PM Re: What is a "Qualified Person"
doc Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 119
Loc: Texas
just started work at a new company and was having a conversation with one of the maint. guys about their pervious maint supervisor,I was informed about how good this guy was with electricial and how fast he could do it. This man was the best and really good at his job,even has his journey lisc.The lisc. gives the thought that he is qualified.Well when we started doing some basic electric stuff such as finding the breaker and turning it off ,hooking the green wire to the metal box with a pigtail, pigtailing the hot and grounded conductor from one outlet to other and last but not least re wiring a machine that needed 220 and 110 to it {the old super } jumped off one side of the 220 and with no neutral or grounded conductor ,he used the old tie the white to the green and then put them under a screw going back to the conduit method } .Everyone wanted to know why I was doing all the stuff this way our other maint. supervisor did't do it like thatThe sad part is he taught his underlings how to do it ALL WRONG. It is really hard to reteach people once they have seen a qualified person do work but have informed each and everyone of them that the next guy that works a hot circuit or fails to test with meter before working a circuit would be a free agent as I would instantly put hiom on waivers .The message of all this is in the eyes of some I would not be qualified and in the others the pervious super. was well qualified so go fiqure
_________________________
MAY THE SUN SHINE ON YOUR FACE IN THE MORNING AND YOU AWAKE WITH A SMILE

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#76006 - 12/08/00 10:39 PM Re: What is a "Qualified Person"
gpowellpec Offline
Member

Registered: 12/06/00
Posts: 128
Loc: Irving, Tx USA
This has been an interesting thread. First Joe asks for input on the term "Qualified Person" as defined and explained in NEC and OSHA. Bill wants easily understandable terms. Joe gives the 70E requirements. Bill says that is vague and wants to know by whom and how the determination of qualified is made. He refers to recognized training courses. Doc says testing and stricter definition of qualified may not be fair to self taught persons. I throw in lawyers and liabilities. Doc gives an example of someone who was considered qualified by people who knew nothing of the definition or any of the requirements involved. I would like to throw in the 2002 NEC proposal to amend the definition to include a requirement that the person "has received safety training on the hazards involved."

I personally like the current definitions and the listing of further requirements in OSHA and 70E. But I am a person that was always good at reading and taking tests. The people writing the standards probably are a lot more like me than they are like the average electrician. That is not meant to demean the average electrician. Hopefully they are electricians because they enjoy the trade and have talents, interests and skills that make them suited for it. I have worked with electricians that thought knowing Ohm's Law was only for engineers. Some of them were very good at the work they did. They were qualified to do the work they did. Some I would trust to work in a hot panel, some I would not. The determining factor was whether they knew how to do the work safely, whether hot or not. Keep in mind I came up open shop industrial and journeymen were referred to as "mechanics."

When I am explaining the OSHA requirements for a Qualified Person working on or near energized parts I simplify it a little. I will use the 70E requirements that Joe posted as example.
Such persons permitted to work within limited approach of exposed energized conductors and circuit parts shall, at a minimum, be additionally trained in all of the following: (Things you need to know to do hot work)
(a) The skills and techniques necessary to distinguish exposed energized parts from other parts of electric equipment (Be able to tell what's HOT and what's NOT)
(b) The skills and techniques necessary to determine the nominal voltage of exposed energized parts (Be able to tell how hot it is)
(c) The approach distances specified in Table 2-1.3.4 of Part II and the corresponding voltages to which the qualified person will be exposed (How close can I get based on how hot it is?)
(d) The decision-making process necessary to determine the degree and extent of the hazardl and the personal protective equipment and job planning necessary to perform the task safely (What are the degree of the hazards and what methods and equipment do I use to do the job safely and to protect myself in the event of accident?)


Who determines if a person is qualified for a certain task? The employer or his designee is legally required to do this. I am not concerned with how they do it. I feel it is ultimately up to the person doing the work. If he or she doesn't feel they can do it safely the way they are being asked or directed to do it, they should speak up and ask for more equipment, different procedures, or more training. The training may only be watching someone else do the task. The worker is the one risking injury and death in the course of making a living, not the managers and human resource people. On a management level, determinations of qualified or not qualified will never be free from cost and liability factors, ignorance of the real danger(likelihood and magnitude of an accident), and the belief they will be as lucky in the future as they have been in the past. This is shown by the number of companies that realize employees need training only after someone is injured or killed.

I may point out the things stated in my earlier post to my students. I do not leave them thinking I only want to help them achieve a legally acceptable level of qualified. I want them to leave the class knowing they can do their jobs safely. That may involve knowing their personal limits concerning a particular task or knowing they have the right to question the safety of the standard way of doing that task. If the employee is honest and sincere in his decisions and has a problem with his employer because of this, either he shouild not be doing this type of work or should not be working for that employer. Let's face facts. The work has to be done. Either the employer will be agreeable and find a safe way to do it or get someone who is willing to take more risks. The latter type of employer is the reason we have OSHA.

The big question is: How does an employee learn that he is taking an unnecessary risk in the first place? When did most of you learn what levels of shock are really hazardous and that available amps determine the level of arc flash?

A little side story about employer concern for the health and safety of workers: I was working on a Beta gauge in Mexico some years back. This machine used a radioactive source to measure the thickness of sheet metal. The radiation decals had been taken off the machine because government inspectors would charge extra fees and make extra inspections if they knew the machine was radioactive. The operator was instructed that when a red light came on, the shield was retracted from the source, exposing the radiation to the product. The operator was instructed to visually verify that the source was exposed so that all the product would get measured. The operator would walk up to the source, with his hands shielding his genitals for fear of becoming sterile, and look straight at the source with his unprotected eyes. Some people just don't know because they have not been told or shown.




[This message has been edited by gpowellpec (edited 12-13-2000).]

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