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#64252 - 04/03/06 02:38 PM Pancake box question
Grover Offline
Member

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 110
Loc: Sebago, ME, USA
We've been debating the "legality" of pancake boxes on several jobs, so I thought I'd throw it out here...

3 1/4 x 1/2 Raco pancake is 3.9 cu in; 4 x 1/2 Raco is 6 cu in. There are also several "blocks" that fit over vinyl with varying cu in capacity.

Fill factor - #14 - 2 cu in per conductor plus 2 cu in for all grounds = 6 cu in (no clamps - black button for connector).

So, 3 1/4 can't be used anywhere, but 4" is ok for typical outside light next to door.

Right or wrong? How do you guys do it? Rough in - a wire poked out next to the door, and then comes finish......

Thanks for input / discussion.

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#64253 - 04/03/06 03:05 PM Re: Pancake box question
iwire Offline
Moderator

Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4343
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
The box fill rules allow including additional volume from added sections.

 Quote:
314.16(A) Box Volume Calculations. The volume of a wiring enclosure (box) shall be the total volume of the assembled sections, and, where used, the space provided by plaster rings, domed covers, extension rings, and so forth, that are marked with their volume or are made from boxes the dimensions of which are listed in Table 314.16(A).


The people making the boxes do not know that the box will be used without a domed cover with a marked volume.

In the end it is up to the installer to use the boxes code compliantly.

Bob
_________________________
Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

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#64254 - 04/03/06 03:14 PM Re: Pancake box question
Celtic Offline
Member

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 367
Loc: NJ
Do you think the fixture canopy has any allowance?


The total box volume is determined by adding the individual volumes of the box components. The components include the box itself plus any attachments to it, such as a plaster ring, an extension ring, or a dome cover.
_________________________
~~ CELTIC ~~
...-= NJ =-...

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#64255 - 04/03/06 03:19 PM Re: Pancake box question
iwire Offline
Moderator

Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4343
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
I think a dome cover is a canopy.

I just can not remember seeing any with a marked volume which is part of the requirement.
_________________________
Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

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#64256 - 04/03/06 03:24 PM Re: Pancake box question
Celtic Offline
Member

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 367
Loc: NJ
iwire...I'll agree with you that a dome is a canopy....and I have yet to see a cover that has a volume stamped on it.

Seems we posted at about the same time, but you had a quicker trigger finger (I still "hunt and peck" on the key board)
_________________________
~~ CELTIC ~~
...-= NJ =-...

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#64257 - 04/03/06 03:27 PM Re: Pancake box question
Ryan_J Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 1355
Loc: West Jordan, Utah, USA
I typically buy it if it has (1) 14-2 in it.
_________________________
Ryan Jackson,
Salt Lake City

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#64258 - 04/03/06 03:35 PM Re: Pancake box question
Grover Offline
Member

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 110
Loc: Sebago, ME, USA
So, we're all talking about the 4" pancake, not the 3" one - right?

I agree that the dome or canopy does increase the volume, but marked?.....

So why do we continue to see the 3" pancake sold/ manufactured?

Thanks for the continuing dialog....

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#64259 - 04/03/06 03:44 PM Re: Pancake box question
iwire Offline
Moderator

Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4343
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
 Quote:
So, we're all talking about the 4" pancake, not the 3" one - right?


My answer fits either.

 Quote:
So why do we continue to see the 3" pancake sold/ manufactured?


They make what sells and pancake boxes sell.


Bob
_________________________
Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

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#64260 - 04/03/06 03:46 PM Re: Pancake box question
Celtic Offline
Member

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 367
Loc: NJ
At this point, we are talking about a box smaller than 4" (your 4x1/2" IS 6 cu.in - so it's "legal" for the one 14/2 romex).

The smaller box (I haven't seen a 3 1/4 x 1/2" box, but a 3x 5/8" box) is what we are on.


Here's an interesting article from Mike Holt:
Outlet Box sizing

The page is dated 2002.

Q:
Domed Fixture Canopy [314.16(B)(1), Ex.].
A round 4 x 1/2 in. box has a total volume of 7 cubic inches and has factory internal cable clamps. Can this pancake box be used with a lighting luminaire that has a domed canopy? The branch-circuit wiring is 14/2 nonmetallic-sheath cable and the luminaire has three fixture wires and one ground wire all smaller than 14 AWG.
(a) Yes (b) No

A:?

(Check the link for answer )


********
EDIT:
iwire...seems the proper term is a DOMED fixture CANOPY

LOL

[This message has been edited by Celtic (edited 04-03-2006).]
_________________________
~~ CELTIC ~~
...-= NJ =-...

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#64261 - 04/03/06 03:50 PM Re: Pancake box question
Grover Offline
Member

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 110
Loc: Sebago, ME, USA
I agree iwire....

On another "point of discussion" - this has been ongoing discussion for a while on several jobs.....

The ground wire. tie to the pancake, or to the fixture bar, or both? Fixture bar gets connected to the pancake, so no need to to take bare ground to pancake, just loop the braided "luminere" [sic] ground wire to the fixture bar, nut it to the 14/2 NM ground, and done......

Grov

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