The Electrical Contractor Network

ECN Electrical Forum
Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals

Books, Tools and Test Equipment for Electrical and Construction Trades

Register Now!

Register Now!

We want your input!

Featured:
   

2017 NEC and Related
2017 NEC
Now Available!

   
Recent Posts
Sprinklered equipment 26-008
by bigpapa
Yesterday at 04:24 PM
On Delay Relay with Auto Reset
by Potseal
12/01/16 09:59 AM
Wow, that was close!
by jraef
11/28/16 07:06 PM
Earthquake in New Zeeland
by RODALCO
11/27/16 11:25 PM
Calling all Non-US members!! (Non-US only)
by Tjia1981
11/27/16 06:33 AM
New in the Gallery:
12.5A through 0.75mm˛ flex (just out of curiosity)
Shout Box

Top Posters (30 Days)
gfretwell 15
HotLine1 10
Trumpy 8
Texas_Ranger 8
sparkyinak 7
Who's Online
0 registered (), 221 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#63561 - 03/20/06 02:43 PM Motors and Motor Starters, Heaters
bot540 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/14/04
Posts: 177
Loc: Vernon Hills, IL
If I'm understanding this right you need heaters to protect a motor from overload because they are overfused to compensate for start-up in rush current, right? Can you wire a motor without the heaters?
I don't wire motors to often and I'm doing one for a three phase air compressor. I know all about the tables in 430. Thnks for the help.
_________________________
Jesus may have been a capenter,but God was an electrician.Genesis1:3

Top
Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades

Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades
Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades
Arc Flash Clothing, Gloves, KneePads, Tool Belts, Pouches, Tool Carriers, etc. etc....

#63562 - 03/20/06 02:52 PM Re: Motors and Motor Starters, Heaters
HotLine1 Offline

Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6804
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
Heaters protect against overload currents, fuses/breakers protect against short circuit currents.

430 gives you the maximum ratings for both.
Newer starters (solid state, electronic) have adjustable range overloads, more convenient for the installer.

John
_________________________
John

Top
#63563 - 03/20/06 03:46 PM Re: Motors and Motor Starters, Heaters
bot540 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/14/04
Posts: 177
Loc: Vernon Hills, IL
John, Do you have any idea how much one of the newer starters are? Or who makes a reliable one?
I got a qoute for a square D encloser w/heaters for $280. Can I wire the motor without the overload protection? It will be wired with #10s and on a 30A breaker(FLA is 12.5). The motor was $300 dollars by itself, do I need to spend another $300 to protect it?
_________________________
Jesus may have been a capenter,but God was an electrician.Genesis1:3

Top
#63564 - 03/20/06 03:53 PM Re: Motors and Motor Starters, Heaters
HotLine1 Offline

Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6804
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
Read 430.31, 430.32 for NEC requirements.

The Sq D solid state is approx the same cost, or +10 to 15 bucks over the heater type.

Be forwarned, you need nameplate info (FLC) to get the correct adjustable range.

IMHO, a starter w/OL is a investment, even IF it's not required by NEC.

John
_________________________
John

Top
#63565 - 03/20/06 04:10 PM Re: Motors and Motor Starters, Heaters
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: Blue Collar Country
Bypass the "heaters", and you might as well just use a contactor. By definition, a "starter" is only a contactor with overload protection.

Can you do it? Sure. But why? Shouldn't you fix the problem- and not remove the thing that's covering your tail?

As for the electronic types....besides overload protection, they also provide protection against low voltage , single phasing, and circuit imbalance. A real improvement, if you ask me.

Bot, as to your original theory- you've confused apples and oranges.
The fuses, or circuit breakers, are oversized to allow for start-up currents.
"Heaters," on the other hand, respond much, much slower, so this is not an issue. You generally have deaters that are set quite close to the normal operating current of the appliance. Only a sustained overload will make them trip.

Top
#63566 - 03/20/06 05:14 PM Re: Motors and Motor Starters, Heaters
winnie Offline
Member

Registered: 09/15/03
Posts: 652
Loc: boston, ma
If you only need to manually start and stop a motor, as well as provide the necessary protection, would something like this be suitable: http://web1.automationdirect.com/adc/Sho...idth/BM3RHB-013

I can't figure out if this is a totally stand alone device which integrates motor protection, or a device which must be mated to a contactor. It is pretty clear that the above device _may_ be mated to a contactor, and that one could create a full manual starter with proper overload protection for quite a bit less than $300.

-Jon

Top
#63567 - 03/20/06 05:43 PM Re: Motors and Motor Starters, Heaters
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: Blue Collar Country
Winnie, the prices mentioned were for NEMA- size starters. I agree that they are often much more than what is needed.

What you show is an "IEC" style component. These are mated to matching IEC contactors, and the assembly is a starter. They are very usefull, especially with smaller motors.
This item mounts on a DIN rail inside an enclosure. There is also a need to mount switches / push buttons, and wire them in.

Top
#63568 - 03/20/06 06:07 PM Re: Motors and Motor Starters, Heaters
JoeTestingEngr Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 786
Loc: Chicago, Il.
What really gets my goat is that NFPA 130 won't allow me to use thermal overload protection in subway emergency ventilation fans. It seems a darn shame because most of the time they are used won't be for emergencies. I never got a clarification as to whether or not I can use overloads other than thermal.
Joe

Top
#63569 - 03/20/06 07:08 PM Re: Motors and Motor Starters, Heaters
distributor x Offline
Member

Registered: 07/28/05
Posts: 57
Loc: Canada
" Can you wire a motor without the heaters?
I don't wire motors to often and I'm doing one for a three phase air compressor"

Why would you not use heaters??? The starter (contactor & overload block w/ heaters) are very inexpensive, compared to the price of replacing the motor.

The fuses protect the cable & the heaters protect the motor (overcurrent & from single phasing)

For an application with a compressor, I would recommend a NEMA starter, I prefer the Furnas (Siemens) Class 14 starters with the ESP electronic overload.. as when it comes to compressors, they tend to cycle quite a bit and I would not trust the IEC starters as they need to be oversized

[This message has been edited by distributor x (edited 03-20-2006).]

Top
#63570 - 03/25/06 07:55 PM Re: Motors and Motor Starters, Heaters
ShockinglyWise Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/20/05
Posts: 4
Allen Bradley makes a very nice and easy to field assemble wall mount style starter. It comes with nema starter, main breaker, heaters, contactor, control transformer, terminal blocks for control circuit and internal wiring, and a set of N.O. and N.C. contacts for run indication or interlocks. Another nice feature is the enclosure comes with a lockout device and power disconnect handle built in. The enclosure is about the same size as a square-D 100 amp disconnect and can be ordered with all nema ratings on the enclosure.

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >



ECN Electrical Forums - sponsored by Electrical Contractor Network - Electrical and Code Related Discussion for Electrical Contractors, Electricians, Inspectors, Instructors, Engineers and other related Professionals