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#60630 - 01/07/06 02:28 PM Residential subfeed
master66 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 260
Loc: Masontown, PA, USA
Help me justify this...

The original home owner and new home buyer are arguing about the legality of the way a feeder has been installed in a single family dwelling. They are arguing because a home inspector pointed it out along with some other problems that have been corrected.

I looked at it and don't like it but I'm not exactly sure which CODE sections have been violated. If it were me I would just replace the whole thing and get it over with.

So here it is...

As I said, single family dwelling with a 150A service disconnect on the outside of the house. Someone before the current owner, ran SE cable inside of sched. 40 PVC. Then, probably when they discovered they needed four conductors, ran an aluminum 2/0 part of the way on the outside of the PVC. The cable/PVC runs about 15' through a crawl space accessable from the basement to a panel in the basement. The PVC is not installed as a complete system but is duct taped together, on an angle, in two places. The strands that would normally be the GROUNDED (neutral) conductor is being used as the GROUNDING (equipment ground) in the panel. The extra piece of 2/0 that was installed partially on the outside of the PVC is being used as the GROUNDED (neutral) conductor.

In order for me to fail this installation I have to site CODE sections.

Help me out guys...
Thanks
Brian

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#60631 - 01/07/06 02:48 PM Re: Residential subfeed
Speedy Petey Offline
Member

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 175
Loc: Upstate, NY
One you could use is 250.102(E):

250.102(E) Installation The equipment bonding jumper shall be permitted to be installed inside or outside of a raceway or enclosure. Where installed on the outside, the length of the equipment bonding jumper shall not exceed 1.8 m (6 ft) and shall be routed with the raceway or enclosure. Where installed inside of a raceway, the equipment bonding jumper shall comply with the requirements of 250.119 and 250.148.
_________________________
Speedy Petey

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new." -Albert Einstein

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#60632 - 01/07/06 02:56 PM Re: Residential subfeed
LK Offline

Member

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 1721
Loc: New Jersey
To start with, try 300.3 (A)Conductors, (B)
No matter how much code you quote, The seller, will not want to spend anything on repairs, however, he wants the highest market price for his home, and sellers were able to get away without doing repairs, until home inspections came along, now you need to explain to the seller, what the violations are, and most of the time, this can take longer then doing the job, even after you show them the problem, most refuse to make any repairs, try to sell a car with bad brakes, missing exhaust system, cracked windshield, and see if you can get the good condition price for it, these homes have bad breaks.


[This message has been edited by LK (edited 01-07-2006).]

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#60633 - 01/07/06 04:36 PM Re: Residential subfeed
Active 1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 684
Loc: Grayslake IL, USA
Don't waist too much time on this.
I hope your not just giving them a free estimate on this. As odds your written estimate will just be used for final negotiations at the closing.

Tom

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#60634 - 01/07/06 05:02 PM Re: Residential subfeed
LK Offline

Member

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 1721
Loc: New Jersey
Tom,

There are a lot of EC's that are charging from $200 to $250, just to go over the home inspection electrical items, and provide a written report, and estimate of repairs, i guess they are learning form other trades that have been doing that for years, time is money.

[This message has been edited by LK (edited 01-07-2006).]

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#60635 - 01/07/06 06:21 PM Re: Residential subfeed
HCE727 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/05
Posts: 190
Loc: Delaware County, PA, USA
I do electrical home inspection corrections for some realtors, some of the home inspection company's are horrible. Just today I replaced an original 60a copper service cable which was in bad shape, with a 100a cable, in a panel that had a 60a back fed breaker, as the main with no additional fastner as per NEC artical 408.36(f) and 2 double tapped breakers and a non gfi outlet right next to the panel, in the garage of this property. The inspection report only noted the the service cable.
_________________________
Hank

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#60636 - 01/07/06 06:54 PM Re: Residential subfeed
HCE727 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/05
Posts: 190
Loc: Delaware County, PA, USA
Some townships are horrible also, I had to do an electrical certification for a property that passed a home inspection and a township inspection. I went to the property and found 17 violations/hazards!! I don't know what they were lokking at? To top it off the township wants you to be licensed in their township and you need to pull a permit, just for giving a certification without doing any work.
_________________________
Hank

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#60637 - 01/07/06 09:46 PM Re: Residential subfeed
InspectorE Offline
Member

Registered: 10/08/04
Posts: 51
Loc: Hudson WI USA
You indicate that the disconnect is on the outside of the house. That makes the run from the disconnect to the panel in the house a feeder, not a service lateral.

Type SE cable can be used for feeders and branch circuits. Article 338.10(B)(4)applies:

"Installation Methods For Branch Circuits And Feeders
(a) Interior installations. In addition to the provisions of this article, Type SE service entrance cables used for interior wiring shall comply with the installation requirements of Parts I and II of Article
334, excluding 334.80."

Article 334 deals with NM, NMC, and NMS cables. Article 334.15(B) requires protection for the cable in "exposed" work. I think I can easily visualize a homeowner in the crawl space with a saw, hammer, screwdriver, or some other instrument that could easily puncture one of the hot feeder lines. If he happens to be grabbing the cold water pipe, it's crispy critters.

"The cable shall be protected from physical damage where necessary by conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC rigid non-metallic conduit, pipe, guard strips, listed surface metal or non-metallic raceway or other means. Where passing through a floor, the cable shall be enclosed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC rigid non-metallic conduit, pipe, guard strips, listed surface metal or non-metallic raceway or other metal pipe extending at least 150mm (6 inches) above the floor"

Also note 334.30:

"Securing And Supporting
Non-metallic sheathed cable shall be secured by staples, cable ties, straps, hangers, or similar fittings designed and installed so as not to damage the cable at intervals not exceeding 1.4m (4-1/2 feet) and within 300mm (12 inches) of every cabinet, box, or fitting."

I don't see duct tape listed. I hope this is correct!

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#60638 - 01/07/06 09:50 PM Re: Residential subfeed
LK Offline

Member

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 1721
Loc: New Jersey
Not like a free painting estimate, where you walk in, size up the rooms, and your gone, after you go over the home inspection report, you need to look for all the missed items, and to do it right you may be there for a few hours, then spend the time to write up a report and estimate, so a good fee is needed to cover your time, as he was pointing out "The original home owner and new home buyer are arguing about the legality of the way a feeder has been installed in a single family dwelling." so you know from the start, this job is going to tie up some time.

[This message has been edited by LK (edited 01-08-2006).]

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#60639 - 01/10/06 06:16 AM Re: Residential subfeed
Mvannevel Offline
Member

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 29
Loc: Hesperia, Michigan, USA
Let's start out with 300.3(B) which requires all conductors of the same circuit (including the grounded conductor) to be contained within the same raceway or cable. Then there's 352.48 which requires joints between lengths of conduit to be made by approved means.

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