The Electrical Contractor Network

ECN Electrical Forum
Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals

Books, Tools and Test Equipment for Electrical and Construction Trades

Register Now!

Register Now!

We want your input!

Featured:
   

2017 NEC and Related
2017 NEC
Now Available!

   
Recent Posts
Industrail Control Panel bonding per 409.108
by sparkyinak
Yesterday at 06:29 PM
Calling all Non-US members!! (Non-US only)
by aussie240
12/07/16 02:39 AM
Photo Upload Tutorial
by DanK
12/06/16 11:35 PM
Sprinklered equipment 26-008
by bigpapa
12/02/16 04:24 PM
On Delay Relay with Auto Reset
by Potseal
12/01/16 09:59 AM
New in the Gallery:
12.5A through 0.75mm˛ flex (just out of curiosity)
Shout Box

Top Posters (30 Days)
gfretwell 13
HotLine1 10
sparkyinak 9
Texas_Ranger 8
Potseal 6
Who's Online
0 registered (), 194 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#53343 - 06/21/05 10:03 PM What constitutes a "Dedicated" circuit?
mxslick Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/04
Posts: 785
Loc: Atomic City, ID USA
An associate and I engaged in a debate over what would be considered a "dedicated" circuit.

He feels that one half of a multi-wire circuit (shared neutral, one grounding conductor) is a dedicated circuit. (The circuit in question runs to a resi bathroom. One leg powers the receptacles and the other leg a ceiling-mounted heater/fan.) He wants to remove the heater fan and power a "dedicated" receptacle in an ajoining room for a computer.

I disagreed, as I feel a true dedicated circuit has its own neutral and grounding conductor, each returning to the panel ideally without splices and/or taps.

Code issues aside, what do you guys think?

Tony

(edited to correct bad typing)

[This message has been edited by mxslick (edited 06-22-2005).]
_________________________
Stupid should be painful.

Top
Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades

Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades
Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades
Arc Flash Clothing, Gloves, KneePads, Tool Belts, Pouches, Tool Carriers, etc. etc....

#53344 - 06/21/05 10:38 PM Re: What constitutes a "Dedicated" circuit?
Active 1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 684
Loc: Grayslake IL, USA
I worked with some that felt a dedicated circuit could not have the nutral shared.

For me a dedicated circuit is one breaker connected to one thing. Got to charge more for it to cover the cost of the HR. Where with a general lighting circuit I might not charge for the circuit because I figure I make it up on all the openings.

Unless they specify it's not their business if I network circuits together. Granted I try to avoid motor loads with lighting and electronics.

Say I got 2 sump pumps that are to be on dedicated circuits. What differance is it to the HO if I network them?

Maybe it would make your partner happy if you called it something elce like a single load circuit.

Tom

Top
#53345 - 06/21/05 10:41 PM Re: What constitutes a "Dedicated" circuit?
gfretwell Offline

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9045
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
I would tend to agree that you might see some influence of harmonics from one side to the other on a multiwire circuit but that would be caused by the computer, not something that would hurt the computer.
_________________________
Greg Fretwell

Top
#53346 - 06/22/05 05:08 AM Re: What constitutes a "Dedicated" circuit?
dmattox Offline
Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 267
Loc: Anaheim, CA
I don’t think its a code issue, but a specification issue. Plans rarely specify what dedicated means, so I use my judgment.

I go by 4 levels of circuits, each with increasing costs:
1. General - shared power, neutral, and ground
2. Dedicated - its own power, but shared neutral and ground (usually for a coffee pot or something like that)
3. Dedicated w/ own neutral - own power, neutral, but shared ground (I use this on alarms, phone equipment when IG isn’t spec’ed).
4. IG - own power, neutral and ground.

Top
#53347 - 06/22/05 06:30 AM Re: What constitutes a "Dedicated" circuit?
Gregtaylor Offline
Member

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 212
Loc: Boise, Idaho, USA
DMattox, when you install what you call an IG circuit, do you use the IG receptacle with the special symbol to indicate that it is IG? An awful lot of electricians do, even when they are terminating in a panel that does not have a true IG ground bar.

Top
#53348 - 06/22/05 05:40 PM Re: What constitutes a "Dedicated" circuit?
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: Blue Collar Country
It seems obvious to me that a "dedicated circuit" has a breaker serving that outlet, and no other. And, last I looked, the neutral has no connection to the breaker, so it doesn't come into the discussion at all.

That said, I consider using a dedicated neutral as a very important first step where there are power quality concerns- so very often a dedicated circuit will also have a dedicated neutral.
From a code standpoint, I see no problem with, say, the furnace and the laundry sharing a neutral- even though they are both dedicated circuits.

Top
#53349 - 06/22/05 07:54 PM Re: What constitutes a "Dedicated" circuit?
dmattox Offline
Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 267
Loc: Anaheim, CA
Gregtaylor, it depends.

There is nothing that requires the isolated ground to be connected to the switchgear ground, it is an option that the code allows. So if the customer is willing/wanting to pay for it, I will do it. However, installing an isolated ground outlet that has a seperate ground connected to the ground buss bar in a subpanel is a code compliant installation IMO.

I guess I should have a 5th option, IG with ground ran to switchgear. Though I've never had someone want to pay for it during a service call.

Top
#53350 - 06/22/05 09:30 PM Re: What constitutes a "Dedicated" circuit?
gfretwell Offline

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9045
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
The code really does not address IG circuits with how you have to do it. It only relieves you of making load end connections to cabinets, raceways or boxes if the IG conductor is present. You still need them bonded, just not to your IG.
Where that initial IG bonding happens is a design decision (in NEC speak). Proper IG design dictates that the IG will bond to the same bus as the main bonding jumper and radiate from there "isolated". If you are not doing that you might as well save your IG money.
I can PDF up the design criteria from the IBM physical planning book if someone wants to see it.
It might also be noted that IBM officially withdrew the requirement for IG sometime in the 80s because it really wasn't fixing anything. Some computer folks still cling to the illusion that it helps.
_________________________
Greg Fretwell

Top
#53351 - 06/22/05 10:42 PM Re: What constitutes a "Dedicated" circuit?
dmattox Offline
Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 267
Loc: Anaheim, CA
I totally agree that IG isn’t needed, unless you have specific testing or studio equipment. I try to steer people away from it if I have the ability to do so.

You say, "Proper IG design dictates...", I would disagree that an IG outlet ran to the nearest panel is rendered useless compared to one ran to the switchgear. It is just one step up the ladder.

Like I said in my original post, there are different levels of isolation/dedication. As you increase up the level, your isolation increase, however so does your costs, with a diminishing return in isolation. You could run 3/0 for your ground of an IG 120V/20A outlet all the way to the switchgear, most likely it would result in a cleaner ground; however it most likely would be a marginal increase over a dedicated ground to your nearest panel. It’s all a cost/performance analysis based on the application.

Top
#53352 - 06/23/05 04:15 AM Re: What constitutes a "Dedicated" circuit?
Trumpy Offline

Member

Registered: 07/05/02
Posts: 8540
Loc: SI,New Zealand
My interpretation of a "dedicated circuit" would be a circuit that has no reference to any other circuit in the installation.
And is supplied from it's own dedicated Circuit-Breaker or Fuse and has it's own neutral.
_________________________
Let's face it, these days if you're not young, you're old - Red Green grin

Top



ECN Electrical Forums - sponsored by Electrical Contractor Network - Electrical and Code Related Discussion for Electrical Contractors, Electricians, Inspectors, Instructors, Engineers and other related Professionals