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#50640 - 04/08/05 11:52 PM Cook top with neutral
aldav53 Offline
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Registered: 08/22/01
Posts: 545
Loc: Chandler, AZ USA
Doing a remodel job in a home and in the kitchen the old cook top had a 30a 240v
10-2 NM run to it. The new cook top has 2 power leads, 1 neutral and a ground. The new one is probably set up to run some 120v things on it, along with the 240v heat elements. Is there any way to hook this up without having to run a new 10-3 NM circuit? Otherwise the ground will end up being a current carring ground.
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#50641 - 04/09/05 12:04 AM Re: Cook top with neutral
e57 Offline
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Registered: 05/27/03
Posts: 2876
Loc: S.F.,CA USA
You are there to sell them wire aren't you?
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#50642 - 04/09/05 03:23 AM Re: Cook top with neutral
northstar Offline
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Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 42
Loc: Long Island, New York
I think you know the answer to your own question.
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#50643 - 04/09/05 03:47 AM Re: Cook top with neutral
iwire Offline
Moderator
Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4391
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
Quote:
You are there to sell them wire aren't you?


Well put!

We sell them the material and rent them our knowledge.

We know it is incorrect to use the EGC as the neutral, thats why they hired an electrician. They are looking for a safe, code compliant job, even though they will not be happy about the costs.



[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 04-09-2005).]
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#50644 - 04/09/05 05:43 AM Re: Cook top with neutral
HLCbuild Offline
Member
Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 209
Loc: Herndon,Va USA
Perhaps a look at the installation instructions might shed some light on this. If it is listed for a 2 wire installation the instructions will let you know. (Although I know it is tough for us to ask for directions!)
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#50645 - 04/09/05 11:04 AM Re: Cook top with neutral
aldav53 Offline
Member
Registered: 08/22/01
Posts: 545
Loc: Chandler, AZ USA
If the neutral and the ground are tied together at the main panel feeding the cook-top. Tieing the neutral and ground (from the cook-top) together at the junction box (using exhisting ground) right below the cook-top would be the same results.
With a new circuit running 10-3, if you touch the neutral at the cook-top, it would be the same as touching the ground, since they are tied together at the main panel.
Am I wrong?
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#50646 - 04/09/05 11:16 AM Re: Cook top with neutral
aldav53 Offline
Member
Registered: 08/22/01
Posts: 545
Loc: Chandler, AZ USA
HLCbuild,
Actually I didn't see the cooktop, my help work on it. But if there is 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground, I don't see what the directions would tell you. Its pretty self explanitory.
The situation with water heaters, dryers, using the neutral is the same, kinda unclear as to why there is a difference from the main panel and the recept or junction point as far as the neutral and ground tied together.
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#50647 - 04/09/05 11:44 AM Re: Cook top with neutral
iwire Offline
Moderator
Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4391
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
There is no time that the NEC allows the use of an EGC as the neutral on the load side of the service disconnect.

The NEC used to let you use the neutral to ground range and dryer frames. This is not allowed anymore except in existing installations.

Current carrying conductors must be insulated, the EGC is not insulated.

One reason for the separation of the grounded and grounding conductors is to prevent a difference of potential caused by voltage drop across the conductor.

It is great you want to learn the reasons for this but you should (in my opinion) not believe you can second guess issues that have long been worked out.

If it was not a safety issue the NEC would allow it.

Bob
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Construction & Maintenance Electrician
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#50648 - 04/09/05 01:13 PM Re: Cook top with neutral
CTwireman Offline
Member
Registered: 02/07/02
Posts: 840
Loc: Connecticut, USA
I can't believe this question is even being asked by an electrician.

Peter
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#50649 - 04/09/05 02:33 PM Re: Cook top with neutral
jdadamo Offline
Member
Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 37
Loc: Calgary, AB, Canada
Here's your risk:

Lets assume (theoretically) that you do indeed tie together the neutral and ground at the cooktop, connecting them both to the EGC. Now just for fun, lets sever that EGC. Customer turns on stove and causes some kind of 120 v load. Neutral and ground have been bonded at connection point. Customer touches stove. What happens? They complete the circuit. Dead customer. Your license goes bye-bye.

This doesn't happen when you keep them separated all the way back. A severed neutral is just a severed neutral. (And yes, this same risk exists in pre-1996 3-wire stoves and dryers, but that is completely besides the point).

I'm not even an electrician (which is why I barely pipe up here unless I know i'm right) but this is so blatantly obvious to me...
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