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#50546 - 04/05/05 06:13 PM Outside Generator Set
shortcircuit Offline
Member
Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 608
Loc: massachusetts
If I backfeed a dwelling with a optional automatic stand-by power from a permanently installed outdoor generator set, do I need to hit a building disconnecting means before the automatic transfer equipment?

shortcircuit
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#50547 - 04/06/05 02:49 AM Re: Outside Generator Set
shortcircuit Offline
Member
Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 608
Loc: massachusetts
Also...

1)Are the conductors that back feed the building considered feeder conductors? (The system will incorporate a solidly connected grounded conductor)

2) Is it necessary to install audible and visual signal devices as mentioned in 702.7 with a permanently installed outdoor generator set?

shortcircuit
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#50548 - 04/06/05 04:58 AM Re: Outside Generator Set
Ron Offline
Member
Registered: 03/13/02
Posts: 577
Loc: White Plains, NY
If the ATS will receive the service conductors before the house main disconnect, then the ATS must be service rated.
Whether you need to hit a disco with the gen conductors before the ATS depends on where the set mounted CB is. Also see 225.31
If the generator neutral will be solidly grounded, then be sure that your transfer switch also switches the neutral (3 pole) as the bonding of the neutral indicates a separately derived service and requires the extra transfer of the neutral.
Many ATS's have the indication required. The AHJ would have to say it was practical to install the annunciation, most don't.
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Ron
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#50549 - 04/06/05 05:13 AM Re: Outside Generator Set
shortcircuit Offline
Member
Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 608
Loc: massachusetts
Ron...thanx for the input...

1) The Gen-Set is more than 50ft away from building and out of sight...

2)Are the conductors that backfeed the building classified as feeders?

3)The service conductors will hit the service disconnect before the ATS...is the ATS bonding allowed through the grounded conductor with this arrangement?

shortcircuit
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#50550 - 04/06/05 05:30 AM Re: Outside Generator Set
Yoopersup Offline
Member
Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 826
Loc: Michigan
Look at700.12(6) If out of sight I;d say you;d need one.
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#50551 - 04/06/05 07:47 AM Re: Outside Generator Set
rmiell Offline
Member
Registered: 11/09/00
Posts: 261
Loc: La Junta, Co. USA
I would like to make two points here first.

#1: This systems is not an Article 700 system.

#2: These conductors are not Article 225 circuits.

Now, for specific questions you asked:

You asked "If I backfeed a dwelling with a optional automatic stand-by power from a permanently installed outdoor generator set, do I need to hit a building disconnecting means before the automatic transfer equipment?" See Article 230.72. This allows you to have a remotely located disconnect (such as on the genset).

You asked "Is it necessary to install audible and visual signal devices as mentioned in 702.7 with a permanently installed outdoor generator set?" Your transfer switch should have these devices installed, so you probably won't have to worry about it.

You asked "The service conductors will hit the service disconnect before the ATS...is the ATS bonding allowed through the grounded conductor with this arrangement?" The answer would be no, since the service equipment would stop at the main disconeect. A seperate equipment grounding conductor would have to be run from the disco to the ATS, and all grounding electrode connections would be made in the disco. Another option would be to run both systems into the ATS, then to the disco, after the ATS. Then you would not have to run the EGC between the ATS & disco, as your grounded circuit conductor would suffice.

Ron was correct in his statement that the ATS needs to be service rated (if installed before the disco). His reference to Article 225 is incorrect, as this is a Article 230 issue. His statement about the switching of the neutral in the ATS is also incorrect, as this is not a seperately derived system (see definitions). The determining factor for a seperatly derived system is not that there is a solidly grounded conductor, but instead that there is NO interconnection.

Rick
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#50552 - 04/06/05 05:40 PM Re: Outside Generator Set
shortcircuit Offline
Member
Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 608
Loc: massachusetts
Thanx Rick...I think I got it...

So, with the grounding electrode system being within the building (metal water pipe), that is used for grounding the building service disconnecting means, and with the ATS having a solidly connected grounded conductor, I will not bond the grounded conductor of the outdoor generator set to its frame, and I will use the building grounding electrode as the electrode for the gen set...whew

I will also run a grounding conductor out to the gen set for grounding its frame...

Lastly, I also will place a sign at the grounding electrode identifying all soures of power...per 702.8(B)

Stallcups generator book is "in the mail" so I can understand this...

shortcircuit
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#50553 - 04/06/05 06:03 PM Re: Outside Generator Set
Ron Offline
Member
Registered: 03/13/02
Posts: 577
Loc: White Plains, NY
If the generator neutral is solidly interconnected to a service supplied system neutral (not switching the neutral in the transfer switch), then it is not a separately derived source. Then you don't bond the n-g at the gen.
If on the other hand the n-g on the gen is bonded, you either unbind at the gen or switch the neutral in the transfer switch.
See 250.20(D) FPN 1
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Ron
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#50554 - 04/08/05 01:52 PM Re: Outside Generator Set
rmiell Offline
Member
Registered: 11/09/00
Posts: 261
Loc: La Junta, Co. USA
Thanks for that referrence, Ron. I looked it up in my handbook, and guess what? There, in black & white as well as diagrams, was just this setup, looking at it two different ways !!!!

Remove the bonding jumper at the genset, and use a 3-pole ATS, and you don't have a seperately derived system. Removal of the jumper may void the manufacturer's warrenty. Check with them first.

If it is required to be there, then does this mean you have a seperately derived sytem? Actually, this has little do do with the classification.

It only depends on if the grounded conductor is switched in the ATS or not. 3-pole, not a SD sytem, if a 4-pole, is a SD system, and all rules applying to such must be followed.

Now I'm not sure what to do with the bonding jumper, if installed on the genset.

Thoughts?

Rick Miell
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#50555 - 04/08/05 03:07 PM Re: Outside Generator Set
Ron Offline
Member
Registered: 03/13/02
Posts: 577
Loc: White Plains, NY
Rick,
I choose one, then make the other comply. If I believe that the gen will have a bond that I can't remove, then go with the switched neutral tran sw.
If the trans sw is existing and doesn't switch the neut., then I make sure I can remove the bond in the gen.
_________________________
Ron
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