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#48863 - 02/21/05 06:58 PM Ungrounded outlets
mhulbert Offline
Member

Registered: 10/19/04
Posts: 133
Loc: Anaheim, CA USA
I don't do much old work, so this may sound basic to guys that do this all the time, but:
I have a customer that has a few receptacles with no ground in the box. The wire is in great shape, but for some reason, the installer cut off the ground wires back to the sheath of the romex, leaving me with nothing! Argh!

What is the correct way to treat these? I am thinking a GFI w/o a ground will be the safest thing I can do for them. If I put one at the beginning of a run, will it protect all the outlets downstream in this configuration? I would like to run new wire to each, but that may not be possible on a few of them.

Thanks for any help,
Mike

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#48864 - 02/21/05 07:12 PM Re: Ungrounded outlets
e57 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/27/03
Posts: 2837
Loc: S.F.,CA USA
If you have no ground in any box, you'll have to gfi them all, not just the first in line.

If you had an EGC between the boxes it would be OK in the way you described.

Both ways you need to mark them all with that little sticker that only sometimes comes with the GFI's now that says, "No Equipment Ground / GFI Protected"

The scmuck you cut off the grounds, probhably thought he was doing everyone a favor by not letting anyone think there was one when he hooked this up to a K&T feed.
_________________________
Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason

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#48865 - 02/21/05 07:29 PM Re: Ungrounded outlets
sandsnow Offline
Member

Registered: 09/21/04
Posts: 163
Loc: Irvine, CA, USA
e57
The '99 allows feed thru to downstream grnding receps. 210-7(d)(2)(c)
Has this changed? We're still on '99 here.
_________________________
Larry LeVoir
Inspector
City of Irvine, CA

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#48866 - 02/22/05 10:17 AM Re: Ungrounded outlets
Roger Offline
Member

Registered: 05/18/02
Posts: 1779
Loc: N.C.
Take note, a GFCI (breaker or receptacle) may not solve all the receptacle problems, 406.3(D)(3)(b) & (c) does not modfiy the requirments of 250.114(3) & (4)

Roger

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#48867 - 02/22/05 11:56 AM Re: Ungrounded outlets
mhulbert Offline
Member

Registered: 10/19/04
Posts: 133
Loc: Anaheim, CA USA
Roger, good call on 250.114...looks line I will have to look in to refeeding them a little closer now. These are kitchen counter and fridge receptacles, I would feel better knowing they're grounded, but as we all know, you start a project in a house this old (built ~1914) and the can of worms gets bigger and bigger.

Thank you for the help!

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#48868 - 02/22/05 12:21 PM Re: Ungrounded outlets
Steve Miller Offline
Member

Registered: 08/30/01
Posts: 322
Loc: Loudoun Cty, VA
You sure that qualifies as an ungrounded circuit? (Just to play devil's advocate here) To me that's a grounded circuit with poor installation. As you say, the wire's fine, just the installer screwed up. What's to keep you/me/anybody from just cutting off all the grounds and treating the whole house as ungrounded? You sure you won't be assuming his liability when you keep it ungrounded? (and no, I don't have a suggested repair method)

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#48869 - 02/22/05 12:31 PM Re: Ungrounded outlets
Dave55 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 666
Loc: Crystal Lake, Illinois, USA
Get a voltage reading at the outlet. The installer may have bent the ground wire back and clamped it with the wire in the connector. Quick and cheap. I've seen it around here.

Dave

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#48870 - 02/22/05 01:09 PM Re: Ungrounded outlets
Roger Offline
Member

Registered: 05/18/02
Posts: 1779
Loc: N.C.
Steve, I don't understand your argument. How does treating the whole house as ungrounded allow you to get around specific code requirements when upgrading to modern methods?

Roger

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#48871 - 02/22/05 02:09 PM Re: Ungrounded outlets
highkvoltage Offline
Member

Registered: 08/13/04
Posts: 35
Loc: Massillon, Ohio, USA
mhulbert. I just finished a house yesterday with the same problem. The person who wired the house the first time cut all the grounding wires. I was able to use the Ideal slices that just push on. You only need about 5/8" of wire. This let me put a tale onto the grounding wire long enough to get to the outlet. My first thought was to use GFCI's like you.

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#48872 - 02/22/05 06:29 PM Re: Ungrounded outlets
sandsnow Offline
Member

Registered: 09/21/04
Posts: 163
Loc: Irvine, CA, USA
Roger
are you saying even though the code allows a grounding recep on a two wire circuit with GFCI protection that you can't use it for an appliance with a three wire cord?

It seems to be a contradiction. What's the point of the section in 406 then?
_________________________
Larry LeVoir
Inspector
City of Irvine, CA

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