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#41178 - 08/16/04 09:16 PM noise from breaker trip unit
Elzappr Offline
Member

Registered: 12/20/01
Posts: 273
Loc: Oregon
I was out of town last week, doing a cursory "PM" on a small service for a computer center, and noticed that one breaker's trip unit was making a barely audible sizzling/snapping sound. The current draw was only 20%, and there was no evidence of loose connections or discoloration. Since this breaker fed some vital UPS equipment and another computer equipment panelboard, I didn't want to even THINK about shutting it down to replace the trip unit. BUT, it would be good to know if some noise coming out of a trip unit is at all normal. Anyone have experience with Westinghouse breakers' trip units (in a Cutler Hammer switchboard)making noise?

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#41179 - 08/16/04 09:34 PM Re: noise from breaker trip unit
e57 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/27/03
Posts: 2837
Loc: S.F.,CA USA
That sizzling sound is just that, aching away until it gives up the ghost.

Replace it soon, or you'll be doing it later. Maybe the buss work its attached to as well....
_________________________
Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason

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#41180 - 08/16/04 10:22 PM Re: noise from breaker trip unit
Bjarney Offline
Moderator

Registered: 04/10/02
Posts: 2561
Loc: West-Southern Inner-Northeast ...
 
Elz, these comments are worth every penny you paid for ‘em.

Given that the noise could indicate a serious problem, if it is a molded-case breaker, get the client rep to let you remove the breaker front cover while in service, {it should be removable if having an interchangeable trip} making every reasonable effort not to open the breaker, but very plainly understood that you not be liable if it happens.

If it is a so-called “critical” load, would the client prefer to prepare for a trip while you are there, or at another time when you might be an hour away and him desperately needing to find a fried-breaker replacement—should that be the only damage during unscheduled failure?

I get the “Where’s your dual-redundant everything?” stance when people start demanding immediate and absolute answers, sometimes followed by a “Please show me your scripted contingency plans for loss of power to this system.” and, “You mean to tell me that a single-point failure will cause some sort of operational disruption? Who decided on that brilliant scheme?” [There are financial operations and data centers that spend serious money on equipment and planning—having learned from expensive mistakes.]

If the client won’t buy into your plan, walk away and don’t lose any sleep over it.

Thermal imaging or AC millivolt-drop tests could be made with the breaker in service. Noise may be from high harmonic current in the circuit.

It may be apparent that over the last decades, I have become cynical and impatient with clueless, self-important, dime-a-dozen hotshot, junior-MBA managers that demand supreme, unfaltering NASA-grade reliability from electrical gear that they barely paid Wallmart prices for, particularly under the guise of protecting their precious data of value akin to the Dead Sea scrolls.




[This message has been edited by Bjarney (edited 08-17-2004).]

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#41181 - 08/17/04 07:04 AM Re: noise from breaker trip unit
resqcapt19 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2209
Loc: IL
 Quote:
if it is a molded-case breaker, get the client rep to let you remove the breaker front cover while in service,

Don't forget the PPE that is required for this work. A short circuit study and arc-blast/flash calculation will be required to select the proper PPE.
Don
_________________________
Don(resqcapt19)

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#41182 - 08/18/04 05:24 PM Re: noise from breaker trip unit
capt al Offline
Member

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 203
Loc: Norton, Ma USA
ELZ, I agree with Bjarney, you have a shutdown waiting to happen. If I was to bet on it 2:00AM when you dead tired. Noise out of the trip unit is bad.

I do thermal imaging as part of my job. Find someone in your area to do an infarred scan of the breaker. This is a lot safer than opening the breaker front cover live. I am not saying you can't do this, just infarred is safer and less likey to cause the breaker to trip. Also do the millivolt drop test across the breaker.

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#41183 - 08/18/04 05:36 PM Re: noise from breaker trip unit
iwire Offline
Moderator

Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4343
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
Here is a 'picture' CaptAl took with the thermal imaging camera.



This one is dramatic but the camera can find very small problems.

Bob
_________________________
Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

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#41184 - 08/18/04 06:16 PM Re: noise from breaker trip unit
Ron Offline
Member

Registered: 03/13/02
Posts: 577
Loc: White Plains, NY
What is it in the picture? Seems like a control wire terminal strip or something of that sort.
_________________________
Ron

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#41185 - 08/18/04 06:40 PM Re: noise from breaker trip unit
winnie Offline
Member

Registered: 09/15/03
Posts: 652
Loc: boston, ma
Looks to me like a row of three pole switches or breakers.

Toward the center right there looks like a 3 pole module that is off, and it is cooler than the other.

The wires on the top of the picture go into one of those plastic finger wire ducts.

I am guessing that this is a row of DIN mounted breakers in some bit of equipment, rather than a panelboard.

And it looks like one of the terminals on one of the breakers/switches is in sorry shape.

-Jon

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#41186 - 08/18/04 06:48 PM Re: noise from breaker trip unit
iwire Offline
Moderator

Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4343
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
I am pretty sure Al told me it was an enclosure filled with IEC style breakers.



I am sure he will get back to us, we work together.

Bob
_________________________
Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

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#41187 - 08/18/04 06:49 PM Re: noise from breaker trip unit
iwire Offline
Moderator

Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4343
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
I think Jon wins the prize.
_________________________
Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

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