ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals

Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#35380 - 03/10/04 07:42 AM California 3-way
Anonymous
Unregistered

Years ago we would wire 3-ways using two conductor cable only and you would end up with a hot and neut in both 3-ways. One two wire from each 3-way to the light and one two wire between the three ways. This was called a "California" System. However I don't remember the connections. Can anyone provide a diagram or tell me where I can find one. Thanks
Top
Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades
#35381 - 03/10/04 07:54 AM Re: California 3-way
winnie Offline
Member
Registered: 09/15/03
Posts: 649
Loc: boston, ma
You may also hear this called a 'French three way', 'Carter three way' or an 'illegal three way'. By whichever name you use, it is illegal and dangerous. The system switches the neutral, which is a clear violation of the NEC. Additionally, on one of the 'off' positions the lamp is still 'hot', with both the screw shell and the center pin 'hot' so that there is no voltage between them.

They way that it works is that you use the three way switches _fed_ from the traveller terminals, with the common terminal connected to the lamp. If one three way is switched so that its common is connected to hot, and the other three way is switched so that its common is connected to neutral, then you complete the circuit and the lamp lights. If both switches present neutral to the lamp, then the lamp is off and everything is safe. If both switches present hot to the lamp, then the lamp is off, but everything is energized to line voltage.

Take a look at http://www.geocities.com/gary_wachs/ElectriPuzzles.html for some interesting three way circuits.

-Jon
Top
#35382 - 03/10/04 09:52 AM Re: California 3-way
electricman2 Offline
Member
Registered: 11/09/03
Posts: 269
Loc: Thomasville, NC USA
Also called the "Chicago 3-way too". Whatever you call it its illegal and dangerous.
_________________________
John
Top
#35383 - 03/10/04 01:36 PM Re: California 3-way
Anonymous
Unregistered

I tried to post a sketch as a photo but can't figure out how to do that although I have seen it done on other posts...hhmmm.
OK here's the wiring and the neutral is not switched. Took a while to figure this out.
There is a two conductor from each switch to the light and a two wire between the two three ways. The black in the two wire between the switches carries the hot through and ties to a traveller post on each switch. The white in the same wire ties to the common on each switch. The white from each two wire carries the neutral through and both tie to the light.
The black in the same wires both tie to the light and to the other traveler on each three way. Feed this set-up on either end and you end up with a hot and neut on the other end. If this goofy set up doesn't meet code why? Appologies in advance if this has been discussed before.
Top
#35384 - 03/10/04 02:18 PM Re: California 3-way
ElectricAL Offline
Member
Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 597
Loc: Minneapolis, MN USA
Thanks, Kent.

Your description answered a question I've had about this scheme since I first heard of it way back. I never could quite visualize it. What I had missed is that the neutral goes off through the light while the hot heads toward the other 3-way. Bringing the neutral to the far 3-way, thus enabling the continuing of the branch circuit is a nice touch.

The polarity at the lampholder is always correct.

The downside, for me is the unbalanced magnetic field created in some switch settings, or when the branch is continued and downstream load is connected. But that is a health issue (and debated, at that), not a NEC issue.

Bottom line, what you described is NEC compliant, IMO.

This is my idea of what you described, KentVW:




ElectricAL

[This message has been edited by Webmaster (edited 03-10-2004).]
_________________________
Al Hildenbrand
Top
#35385 - 03/10/04 03:57 PM Re: California 3-way
:andy: Offline
Member
Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 289
Loc: Germany
the circuit #3 is known as the "american alternating circuit" here. it's prohibited because the fixture can be hot when the light is off...
Top
#35386 - 03/10/04 04:36 PM Re: California 3-way
winnie Offline
Member
Registered: 09/15/03
Posts: 649
Loc: boston, ma
ElectricAL points out the problem with this circuit. Depending upon switch setting or downstream load, your current flows in a large loop, going (in the diagram) from 'switch left' to 'switch right', then 'up' to the lamp, then down to 'switch left'. I believe that this violates 300.3(B), because all the conductors for the circuit are not present in the same cable.

-Jon
Top
#35387 - 03/10/04 05:02 PM Re: California 3-way
Bill Addiss Offline
Member
Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 3875
Loc: NY, USA
:andy,

In this case the conductor that's always in contact with the fixture is the grounded one. There is a another 3-way arrangement that you are probably thinking of.

Bill

(psst; nice picture Al -- )

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 03-10-2004).]
Top
#35388 - 03/10/04 05:47 PM Re: California 3-way
derater Offline
Member
Registered: 03/30/02
Posts: 179
I do some work for a builder who also sell mod. homes.The factory wires the fixtures 'hot'at top of basement stairs and bottom of attic stairs,with 3-wire to switch,and 3-wire drops for site installed 3-way.I've been changing them to 'hot at switch' but that's a pain,and time eater;I'd love to site code section to builder to feed-back to modular mfr. to end this.What is it ?
Top
#35389 - 03/10/04 05:58 PM Re: California 3-way
ElectricAL Offline
Member
Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 597
Loc: Minneapolis, MN USA
Jon,

I think 300.3(B)(3) provides the exception that results in the setup in the diagram that I drew to be NEC compliant. The common installation would be in a dwelling wired with NM-B.

Al
_________________________
Al Hildenbrand
Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Member Spotlight
Member Since: 05/03/03
Posts: 1137
New in the Gallery:
SE cable question
Featured:

2017 NEC and Related
2017 NEC
Now Available!

Shout Box


Who's Online
0 registered (), 93 Guests and 9 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
 
New in the Gallery:
SE cable question
 
Top Posters (30 Days)
Admin 47
HotLine1 43
gfretwell 19
Ruben Rocha 12
Trumpy 9
 
Newest Members
KrmtFrg, Stack, Scotto, Freecrowder, clee512

ECN Electrical Forums - sponsored by Electrical Contractor Network - Electrical and Code Related Discussion for Electrical Contractors, Electricians, Inspectors, Instructors, Engineers and other related Professionals