The Electrical Contractor Network

ECN Electrical Forum
Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals

Books, Tools and Test Equipment for Electrical and Construction Trades

Register Now!

Register Now!

We want your input!


2017 NEC and Related
2017 NEC
Now Available!

Recent Posts
Forum Software Upgrade coming soon...
by Webmaster
Today at 08:52 AM
Would ELV branch circuits be a good idea?
by geoff in UK
Today at 03:25 AM
Why cables look like they do
by Trumpy
Today at 02:20 AM
Re: Fabricating Guards out of Lexan?
by Trumpy
Today at 12:36 AM
100% breakers?
by Texas_Ranger
Yesterday at 06:13 AM
New in the Gallery:
Desk-mounted "power-board"
Shout Box

Top Posters (30 Days)
HotLine1 16
Trumpy 12
Webmaster 12
ghost307 10
frank 9
Who's Online
1 registered (ghost307), 0 Guests and 74 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#30754 - 10/27/03 10:24 AM Separately Derived System
SJT Offline

Registered: 07/24/02
Posts: 242
In a large industrial facility where you have transformers through-out the buildings, is each transformer considered separately derived? These would be a typical 45-100 KVA, with 480 primary and 110/208 secondary. The only place you bond the nuetral and ground would be at the main service. All panels after that, the nuetal bars and equipment grounds would be separate, right? An engineer wanted UPS panels treated like Main panels, and I was telling him that you have to treat them like sub panels. Just because a UPS feeds a panel, it's not the same as a separately derived system. It would be great if some one could clarify this. These transformers would all be in the same building. Thanks

Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades

Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades
Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades
Arc Flash Clothing, Gloves, KneePads, Tool Belts, Pouches, Tool Carriers, etc. etc....

#30755 - 10/27/03 10:38 AM Re: Separately Derived System
resqcapt19 Offline

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2209
Loc: IL
The transformers are SDS and require a neutral to ground bond on the secondary side. UPS systems are, in general, also SDS and require neutral to ground bonds on the load side.

#30756 - 10/27/03 10:43 AM Re: Separately Derived System
pauluk Offline

Registered: 08/11/01
Posts: 7693
Loc: Norfolk, England
Are there cases in the U.S. where with a wye-wye xfmr you might ground the secondary neutral by connecting it to the primary neutral, rather than direct to ground?

#30757 - 10/27/03 12:18 PM Re: Separately Derived System
George Corron Offline

Registered: 05/16/01
Posts: 728
Loc: Lorton, Va USA
What is it about YOU and sticky questions???
Danged Brit troublemaker!!!!!!

Long contentious argument about primary/secondary applications. Yes, there are those types applications though most inside wireman never get into them.

Wye/Wye tend to get connected in the transformer and yes, they are the same as bolted together in these apps. Some engineers claim that the procedure is proper, and I have been involved in curing the subsequent problems by separation.

Regardless the code (seems) is clear that it is an SDS, and it appears grounded properly even though both ground to case. This, of course, renders so much current flow between the two as to render your suppression technique nearly useless, and your coordination practically impossible.

The correction is to isolate in the transformer (whichs SEEMS to be a violation of the NESC) and bond the secondary ONLY at the building served.

This flies in the face of most POCO manuals and unless you have the authority (it was nice that when I found this problem I was in that position) it is difficult to isolate the two and still have a meter in your installation.

Again, sticky question @@#$%$%^^@$ Redcoat.

#30758 - 10/27/03 04:54 PM Re: Separately Derived System
Scott35 Offline

Broom Pusher and

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 2724
Loc: Anaheim, CA. USA
This topic comes up so often, that it might be a benefit for all of us if I compile as much information possible, plus draw some Schematics for several Scenarios, then post in the Technical Reference area.

Any information that memebrs can supply to me will be greatly appreciated!

I am looking for anything regarding the topic of SDS's; Codes, Best for UPS, anything at all!

Will use information that has been successfully debunked in said presentation post.

Send information to me via E-Mail by using the E-Mail icon at top of this message.
(FYI: address is adst at pacbell dot net)

Please begin the message's subject with "Per ECN Topic of SDS", and include your name/user name. (p.s. don't "Quote" the text as I have done in the above example)

I ask you to do this so your messages get filtered into a "Good Place"


Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!

#30759 - 10/28/03 09:44 AM Re: Separately Derived System
pauluk Offline

Registered: 08/11/01
Posts: 7693
Loc: Norfolk, England
It's all of you Colonials causing the problems! Nothing but trouble ever since that little disagreement over some tea...


ECN Electrical Forums - sponsored by Electrical Contractor Network - Electrical and Code Related Discussion for Electrical Contractors, Electricians, Inspectors, Instructors, Engineers and other related Professionals