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#29711 - 09/23/03 07:07 AM Arc Faults for two wire?
watthead Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/01
Posts: 182
Loc: South Carolina
Anyone know if there are any arc fault receptacles that are listed for use on two wire circuits. If so what brand or brands.
Thanks
watthead

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#29712 - 09/23/03 07:17 AM Re: Arc Faults for two wire?
Ryan_J Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 1355
Loc: West Jordan, Utah, USA
Arc-fault recepptacles will not satisfy the requirement of 210.12 to protect the entire branch circuit.
If you are refering to breakers, I believe that no one makes a breaker for this. Some NM cable manufacturers have began making a cable with two grounded conductors and two ungrounded conductors for this purpose.
_________________________
Ryan Jackson,
Salt Lake City

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#29713 - 09/23/03 12:48 PM Re: Arc Faults for two wire?
sparky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5545
you might try CH

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#29714 - 09/23/03 05:09 PM Re: Arc Faults for two wire?
PCBelarge Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/03
Posts: 657
Loc: Dobbs Ferry, NY, USA
Are the manufacturers selling ARC FAULT rececptacles?

Pierre
_________________________
Pierre Belarge

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#29715 - 09/23/03 07:12 PM Re: Arc Faults for two wire?
Sandro Offline
Member

Registered: 12/30/01
Posts: 449
Loc: Stoney Creek, ON, Canada
I have used 2 pole Arc Fault breakers on many installations. As previously mentioned, C-H makes these. Works great with my 3 wire feeds!

I haven't seen any Arc Fault receptacles in these parts, although I imagine it will be soon.

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#29716 - 09/24/03 03:42 AM Re: Arc Faults for two wire?
Redsy Offline
Member

Registered: 03/28/01
Posts: 2138
Loc: Bucks County PA
I'm under the impression that the question pertains to 2-wire, ungrounded circuits, in which the GFCI component of the AFCI will not function.
Which brings up the whole issue of how AFCI protection is actually acheived at lower levels of current.
Is that it, watthead?

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#29717 - 09/24/03 08:27 AM Re: Arc Faults for two wire?
watthead Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/01
Posts: 182
Loc: South Carolina
Yes this is a retrofit of an old two wire, no ground installation. I had not read the entire branch circuit requirement in the code. I guess that eliminates the possibility of receptacles. The entire branch circuit may be an excellent idea in this instance because the panel is in the clothes closet. New question- " are arc fault breakers listed for use on two wire circuits? " Redsey I thought that GFCI's worked when installed on this type of two wire system, but then again I thought an arc fault receptacle might exist, and I have never been on TV explaining what the UFO looked and sounded like, believe it or not.

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#29718 - 09/24/03 01:09 PM Re: Arc Faults for two wire?
ElectricAL Offline
Member

Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 615
Loc: Minneapolis, MN USA
Watthead,

The UL AFCI Test Scenarios document gives a mixed answer. Parallel arcing, UL says YES. Series arcing, however, in ungrounded NonMetallic is a NO. Look at the table on page five on the linked document.
_________________________
Al Hildenbrand

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#29719 - 09/24/03 02:04 PM Re: Arc Faults for two wire?
iwire Offline
Moderator

Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4343
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
 Quote:
I'm under the impression that the question pertains to 2-wire, ungrounded circuits, in which the GFCI component of the AFCI will not function


A GFCI will work fine on a two wire circuit, a GFCI outlet or breaker does not need a ground to operate.

The original question had to do with the availability of AFCI outlets, I do not know if there are available.

I do know that the use of a AFCI outlet would be fairly limited as the AFCI code requirement requires the entire branch circuit in the bedroom to be protected not just the load plugged into an outlet.

2002 NEC
 Quote:
210.12(B) Dwelling Unit Bedrooms. All branch circuits that supply 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter listed to provide protection of the entire branch circuit.


Bob
_________________________
Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

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#29720 - 09/24/03 03:55 PM Re: Arc Faults for two wire?
ElectricAL Offline
Member

Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 615
Loc: Minneapolis, MN USA
One of the ways work on old houses has progressed here in Minnesota, when adding new wiring in bedrooms, is to keep the old and the new seperate. Any new work in a bed must have AFCI from the breaker. . .we do that with new wiring including a new branch circuit. The old wiring that is still in the bedroom that is undisturbed by the construction is grandfathered in and left alone on its original overcurrent protection.

On service upgrades, only new wiring added in a bed is required to be AFCI protected.

It's a hassle to run the circuit all the way back to the panel, but it side steps this very problem that you are struggling with.
_________________________
Al Hildenbrand

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