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#29711 - 09/23/03 10:07 AM Arc Faults for two wire?  
watthead  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 172
South Carolina
Anyone know if there are any arc fault receptacles that are listed for use on two wire circuits. If so what brand or brands.
Thanks
watthead


Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades

#29712 - 09/23/03 10:17 AM Re: Arc Faults for two wire?  
Ryan_J  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,374
West Jordan, Utah, USA
Arc-fault recepptacles will not satisfy the requirement of 210.12 to protect the entire branch circuit.
If you are refering to breakers, I believe that no one makes a breaker for this. Some NM cable manufacturers have began making a cable with two grounded conductors and two ungrounded conductors for this purpose.


Ryan Jackson,
Salt Lake City

#29713 - 09/23/03 03:48 PM Re: Arc Faults for two wire?  
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,303
you might try CH


#29714 - 09/23/03 08:09 PM Re: Arc Faults for two wire?  
PCBelarge  Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 681
Dobbs Ferry, NY, USA
Are the manufacturers selling ARC FAULT rececptacles?

Pierre


Pierre Belarge

#29715 - 09/23/03 10:12 PM Re: Arc Faults for two wire?  
Sandro  Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 444
Stoney Creek, ON, Canada
I have used 2 pole Arc Fault breakers on many installations. As previously mentioned, C-H makes these. Works great with my 3 wire feeds!

I haven't seen any Arc Fault receptacles in these parts, although I imagine it will be soon.


#29716 - 09/24/03 06:42 AM Re: Arc Faults for two wire?  
Redsy  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,056
Bucks County PA
I'm under the impression that the question pertains to 2-wire, ungrounded circuits, in which the GFCI component of the AFCI will not function.
Which brings up the whole issue of how AFCI protection is actually acheived at lower levels of current.
Is that it, watthead?


#29717 - 09/24/03 11:27 AM Re: Arc Faults for two wire?  
watthead  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 172
South Carolina
Yes this is a retrofit of an old two wire, no ground installation. I had not read the entire branch circuit requirement in the code. I guess that eliminates the possibility of receptacles. The entire branch circuit may be an excellent idea in this instance because the panel is in the clothes closet. New question- " are arc fault breakers listed for use on two wire circuits? " Redsey I thought that GFCI's worked when installed on this type of two wire system, but then again I thought an arc fault receptacle might exist, and I have never been on TV explaining what the UFO looked and sounded like, believe it or not.


#29718 - 09/24/03 04:09 PM Re: Arc Faults for two wire?  
ElectricAL  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 597
Minneapolis, MN USA
Watthead,

The [b][i]UL AFCI Test Scenarios[/i][/b] document gives a mixed answer. Parallel arcing, UL says YES. Series arcing, however, in ungrounded NonMetallic is a NO. Look at the table on page five on the linked document.


Al Hildenbrand

#29719 - 09/24/03 05:04 PM Re: Arc Faults for two wire?  
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
Quote
I'm under the impression that the question pertains to 2-wire, ungrounded circuits, in which the GFCI component of the AFCI will not function


A GFCI will work fine on a two wire circuit, a GFCI outlet or breaker does not need a ground to operate.

The original question had to do with the availability of AFCI outlets, I do not know if there are available.

I do know that the use of a AFCI outlet would be fairly limited as the AFCI code requirement requires the entire branch circuit in the bedroom to be protected not just the load plugged into an outlet.

2002 NEC
Quote
210.12(B) Dwelling Unit Bedrooms. All branch circuits that supply 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter listed to provide protection of the entire branch circuit.


Bob


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

#29720 - 09/24/03 06:55 PM Re: Arc Faults for two wire?  
ElectricAL  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 597
Minneapolis, MN USA
One of the ways work on old houses has progressed here in Minnesota, when adding new wiring in bedrooms, is to keep the old and the new seperate. Any new work in a bed must have AFCI from the breaker. . .we do that with new wiring including a new branch circuit. The old wiring that is still in the bedroom that is undisturbed by the construction is grandfathered in and left alone on its original overcurrent protection.

On service upgrades, only new wiring added in a bed is required to be AFCI protected.

It's a hassle to run the circuit all the way back to the panel, but it side steps this very problem that you are struggling with.


Al Hildenbrand

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