The Electrical Contractor Network

ECN Electrical Forum
Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals

Books, Tools and Test Equipment for Electrical and Construction Trades

Register Now!

Register Now!

We want your input!

Featured:
   

2017 NEC and Related
2017 NEC
Now Available!

   
Recent Posts
Industrail Control Panel bonding per 409.108
by sparkyinak
12/08/16 03:17 PM
Calling all Non-US members!! (Non-US only)
by aussie240
12/07/16 02:39 AM
Photo Upload Tutorial
by DanK
12/06/16 11:35 PM
Sprinklered equipment 26-008
by bigpapa
12/02/16 04:24 PM
On Delay Relay with Auto Reset
by Potseal
12/01/16 09:59 AM
New in the Gallery:
12.5A through 0.75mm˛ flex (just out of curiosity)
Shout Box

Top Posters (30 Days)
gfretwell 13
HotLine1 9
Texas_Ranger 8
sparkyinak 8
Trumpy 6
Who's Online
0 registered (), 214 Guests and 7 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#29364 - 09/15/03 11:55 AM Interconnected Smoke Alarms - Maximum of 12
ThinkGood Offline
Member

Registered: 08/07/02
Posts: 1084
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
(Relative to residential installations...the reason why this came up is that I recently saw literature for "BRK Electronics" smoke alarms that states a maximum of 12 alarms can be interconnected. Further research indicated that the UL imposed this limit.)

Has anyone ever had a situation where more than 12 alarms are needed?

To keep this as simple as possible, let's use an example house without getting into attics, basements, etc.

Bedrooms - 1 alarm per room = 5 alarms
Living Room = 1 alarm
Dining Room = 1 alarm
Den = 1 alarm
Top of staircases = 3 alarms
Hallways = 3 alarms

Again, this is just an example, so there may be locations where an alarm should be, or locations where an alarm should not be due to false alarms.

According to this example, there are 14 alarms.

From what I understand, according to various codes, all new-construction houses must have interconnected alarms.

How does one handle such a situation?

Top
Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades

Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades
Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades
Arc Flash Clothing, Gloves, KneePads, Tool Belts, Pouches, Tool Carriers, etc. etc....

#29365 - 09/15/03 12:12 PM Re: Interconnected Smoke Alarms - Maximum of 12
HotLine1 Offline

Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6804
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
TG:
There are alarms made and available that are interconnectable in quantity higher than the 12 for the BRK

Firex is one brand.

I don't dabble in resi, but there are units available

John
_________________________
John

Top
#29366 - 09/15/03 12:28 PM Re: Interconnected Smoke Alarms - Maximum of 12
iwire Offline
Moderator

Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4343
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
At that point I am thinking a Fire Alarm Panel with smokes, heats, horn strobes and maybe some pull stations.

But that is just the commercial side of me.

Is that done in large single family dwellings?

Bob
_________________________
Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

Top
#29367 - 09/15/03 01:42 PM Re: Interconnected Smoke Alarms - Maximum of 12
sparky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5545
Bob, i get beat out of the smokes on most high end residentials due to thier low v interface with everything else

pulls & strobes then become a more viable option with the low-v panel

for the most part, they become part of the burgler alarm setup

guess i should throw these gems into this thread too

Top
#29368 - 09/15/03 02:08 PM Re: Interconnected Smoke Alarms - Maximum of 12
Bjarney Offline
Moderator

Registered: 04/10/02
Posts: 2561
Loc: West-Southern Inner-Northeast ...
Unless local codes intervene, the simplest thing would be to have two zones. Split as upstairs/downstairs, or day/night occupied. That may also minimize confusion of tracking down where the event occurred. Having some central control/reporting may be response time wasted in a residential setup, and kill any advantage of isolated systems.

Of course, building occupants {er, parents} should be well aware of multiple alarm zones.




[This message has been edited by Bjarney (edited 09-16-2003).]

Top
#29369 - 09/15/03 02:34 PM Re: Interconnected Smoke Alarms - Maximum of 12
LK Offline

Member

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 1721
Loc: New Jersey
If you install a control panel with smokes you will still be required to have the interconnect system. We tried to install 24v Fire Panel only, and every time they required the interconnect system also be installed. From what i understand the reason is the owner may discontinue the security service and the fire part would not be kept in working order. We found that most low voltage fire systems are not installed to meet UL requirements, such as smokes not supervised, wrong sounding devices, sloppy wiring and much more. The required interconnect devices at least provide basic protection if they are tested by mfg. instructions.

Top
#29370 - 09/15/03 08:28 PM Re: Interconnected Smoke Alarms - Maximum of 12
Big Jim Offline
Member

Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 377
Loc: Denver, CO USA
LK, I'm a little confused here. I don't mess with alarms much but I know that, on the couple of monitored systems I've touched, I can go in and cut the phone lines to the monitoring company and not affect the integrety of the local system one whit. All pulls, smokes, and local alarm will still function 100%. Why would they cry about a system that is inherently better in the first place (assuming it was installed and inspected originally)?

Top
#29371 - 09/15/03 11:18 PM Re: Interconnected Smoke Alarms - Maximum of 12
ThinkGood Offline
Member

Registered: 08/07/02
Posts: 1084
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
Thanks for the quick and informative responses!

Top
#29372 - 09/16/03 05:19 AM Re: Interconnected Smoke Alarms - Maximum of 12
ElectricAL Offline
Member

Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 615
Loc: Minneapolis, MN USA
My experience with smoke detection setups for dwellings, specifically, one & two family, is that there are at least three AHJs having authority per installation.
  • Electrical Inspector for the wiring (if any).
  • Building Inspector for the placement of the detectors per building code.
  • Fire Marshall for the placement of the detectors per fire code.

Since the Fire Marshall and Building Inspector don't share each and every page of the same code one gets different requirements quoted as gospel, depending upon who's talking. I have learned that the first duty of the system is to increase the chance of survival of any occupant present at the time of a fire, and that all else is secondary. Because of the larger amount of time individual occupants spend sleeping, special attention is paid to placing the detectors and their alarms so as to wake the sleeper.

If the system also contacts a remote supervisory service, fine, but that is extra.

Here, the code(s) language(s) that is(are) enforced results in line powered interconnected battery backup smoke detectors with integral alarms being the least cost for new construction. Devices integrated with a central security package can not be substituted for this. I've seen interface relays used for the smokes to communicate with the security system, but, in my experience, supervised system installers don't want to support the interface. So, as a result, I've seen both systems installed side by side.
_________________________
Al Hildenbrand

Top
#29373 - 09/23/03 03:24 AM Re: Interconnected Smoke Alarms - Maximum of 12
Pinemarten Offline
Member

Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 122
Loc: Edmonton, AB, Canada
To respond to the original post, we have a similar rule in Canada.
On a residential circuit, the limit is 12 devices or 85% amperage of the overcurrent device, which ever is the 'lesser'.
Even though the draw on a smoke is minimal, the limit is still 12.

Top



ECN Electrical Forums - sponsored by Electrical Contractor Network - Electrical and Code Related Discussion for Electrical Contractors, Electricians, Inspectors, Instructors, Engineers and other related Professionals