The Electrical Contractor Network

ECN Electrical Forum
Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals

Books, Tools and Test Equipment for Electrical and Construction Trades

Register Now!

Register Now!

We want your input!


2017 NEC and Related
2017 NEC
Now Available!

Recent Posts
Son of Sparky
by HotLine1
Yesterday at 07:43 PM
Speaking of Plugmold ...
by gfretwell
10/17/16 02:37 PM
Broken battery charger? Check for cobwebs!
by gfretwell
10/17/16 02:30 PM
230 or 345 kV transmission lines?
by annemarie1
10/12/16 01:23 PM
Is this a fix or just a bandaid?
by gfretwell
10/10/16 06:49 PM
New in the Gallery:
12.5A through 0.75mm˛ flex (just out of curiosity)
Shout Box

Top Posters (30 Days)
gfretwell 11
HotLine1 6
renosteinke 6
ghost307 5
sparky 4
Who's Online
1 registered (hyetal), 262 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#29249 - 09/12/03 08:05 AM Another Shortcutter
rowdyrudy Offline

Registered: 11/02/02
Posts: 171
Loc: Mascoutah, IL USA
Friend in a nearby area asked me to look at an installation he had an EC perform for a time clock on a well pump. The pump was 240V and the clock had a 120V motor. 12/2 w/g was routed to the clock and the ground was connected as a neutral to the clock.
Friend contacted county inspector and police. No permit/no inspection. EC out on $250.00 bond. Hearing in two weeks. This kind of workmanship hurts the legit EC.

Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades

Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades
Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades
Arc Flash Clothing, Gloves, KneePads, Tool Belts, Pouches, Tool Carriers, etc. etc....

#29250 - 09/12/03 03:21 PM Re: Another Shortcutter
George Offline

Registered: 02/23/02
Posts: 380
I always run 3+G for 240 circuits just as a protection in such cases.

Before you lay blame ...

A good lawyer might compare this instalation to the allowable installation of a 240v appliance to existing 2+G and continuing to use the ground as a neutral.

A good lawyer might suggest that requiring a permit for installing a clock is a bit much.

#29251 - 09/12/03 05:48 PM Re: Another Shortcutter
Electric Eagle Offline

Registered: 04/20/02
Posts: 928
Loc: Alpharetta, GA
Was someone hurt?

Yes, it was a bad installation, but arresting the guy was a bit much wasn't it? I don't think the police would arrest an electrician for something like this in my area, but you might have to go before the electrical contractors board and risk losing your license, but a warning would be most likely.

Why didn't your friend get you to do the job in the first place and what made him want to have you look at it?

[This message has been edited by Electric Eagle (edited 09-12-2003).]

#29252 - 09/12/03 09:20 PM Re: Another Shortcutter
ga.sparky56 Offline

Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 582
Loc: young harris georgia usa
I'd agree with Eagle.

I've been asked to do similar installations.Lights and/or receps in the pumphouse off the pump ckt come to mind.

Usually the people that ask for this are too cheap and scream in pain when you price the correct installation,so they find a "handyman" or someone who's "done some wiring" to do it anyway.

It's a bad installation,and the line must be drawn somewhere but that would be mild compared to some things you find around here.

Arresting the guy sounds a bit overboard to me.

#29253 - 09/13/03 02:39 AM Re: Another Shortcutter
Pinemarten Offline

Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 122
Loc: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Wouldn't it have been easier to put in a small (50VA) 240/120 transformer and then fuse the secondary L1(X1)and ground the neutral (X2)?
I've done it right up to 600/120. As far as I know, it is legal here. (Canada)

#29254 - 09/13/03 03:22 AM Re: Another Shortcutter
electure Offline


Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 4226
Loc: Fullerton, CA USA
How's about just buying a t/c with a 208-277 volt motor in the first place?
They're readily available...S

#29255 - 09/13/03 10:29 AM Re: Another Shortcutter
PCBelarge Offline

Registered: 06/08/03
Posts: 657
Loc: Dobbs Ferry, NY, USA
You mention running a threewire + ground. How do you get a 120v circuit if you are using the two ungrounded conductors for 240v? I am guessing that the White conductor is to be used for the grounded conductor.

Pierre Belarge

#29256 - 09/13/03 08:10 PM Re: Another Shortcutter
classicsat Offline

Registered: 11/23/02
Posts: 449
There are three insulated conductors, rew, black for hots, the white for neutral.

#29257 - 09/14/03 08:36 AM Re: Another Shortcutter
rowdyrudy Offline

Registered: 11/02/02
Posts: 171
Loc: Mascoutah, IL USA
He just picked the wrong guy to screw. Jay's uncle is a judge and his brother is an attorney. No, Jay didn't go for the cheap and I retired 10 years ago. It wasn't just a time clock but pressure pump and other items associated. The installation was pathetic in its entirety.

#29258 - 09/15/03 07:27 PM Re: Another Shortcutter
nesparky Offline

Registered: 06/21/01
Posts: 650
Loc: omaha,ne
I hope that that will rub off on the DA here. The only way to get rid of fly by nite work is to make the jerks pay more for the bad work than it would have cost for the work to be done correctly. A stint in jail and a heavy fine is a start.


ECN Electrical Forums - sponsored by Electrical Contractor Network - Electrical and Code Related Discussion for Electrical Contractors, Electricians, Inspectors, Instructors, Engineers and other related Professionals