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#23828 - 03/28/03 09:10 PM Isolated Grounds Again!  
mvrandazzo  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 110
I will be wiring a church audio system and I'll be using MC cable and isolated ground recepticles. I know there are many pros and cons about the practicality of IG but I decided to go with it anyway. When I install the recepticles in a metal box do I still need to run a EGC to the metal box separate from the IG because of the metal box? If so, how do you guys and gals do it with MC? Thanks for your oppinions even if you think I am nuts.

Blessings, Mark


Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades

#23829 - 03/28/03 09:35 PM Re: Isolated Grounds Again!  
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
Mark,

Yes you still have to ground any metal box.

Use a plastic plate on IG outlets, if you use a metal plate it is possible for it to contact the metal box connecting the isolated ground to the equipment ground.

12/2 MC IG will have a 2 greens 1 with a yellow stripe. I do not know if available where you are.

12/2 Hospital Grade type AC cable (if you can substitute for mc) use the outer jacket for equipment ground the insulated ground for isolated ground

12/3 MC remark red to green with yellow band.



[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 03-28-2003).]


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

#23830 - 03/28/03 09:38 PM Re: Isolated Grounds Again!  
txsparky  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 552
Magnolia,.Texas U.S.A.
Iwire beat me to it [Linked Image]

Since Type MC cable is not listed for grounding,you will need 2 separate grounding conductors in the cable to set up an isolated ground receptacle.One of the grounds will have to be bonded to the box.

Can red be reidentified for green?

[This message has been edited by txsparky (edited 03-28-2003).]


Donnie

#23831 - 03/28/03 09:51 PM Re: Isolated Grounds Again!  
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
Forgeting about the pros and cons, if you have decided to do this, you have to keep an eye for the small stuff. After all the work you do to keep the grounds separate it is incredibly easy for something small (like a metal plate) to tie the two back together.

We do a lot of office cubes with both IG and regular outlets, all it takes for the two systems to be tied together is one person to plug the florescent light that is fastened to the grounded frame of the cube into a IG outlet and you now have isolated ground jumped to the equipment ground through the cord of the light.

I see very few times where the two grounds really stay separate.

[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 03-29-2003).]


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

#23832 - 03/28/03 10:01 PM Re: Isolated Grounds Again!  
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
2002 250.119(B) allows remarking conductors green or bare in a cable without regard to size.

Bob



[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 03-28-2003).]


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

#23833 - 03/29/03 07:32 AM Re: Isolated Grounds Again!  
zapped208  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 196
Somewhere in USA
mv,- when i install IG receps, i use 12/3 rx or m/c cable. I tape the red green, and attach it to the device. The bare and or green EG, i use to bond the metal boxes.


Shoot first, apologize later.....maybe

#23834 - 03/29/03 10:32 AM Re: Isolated Grounds Again!  
txsparky  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 552
Magnolia,.Texas U.S.A.
This is copied from Bryants website and says the plate screw is isolated from the ground terminal on the device


Characteristics of Isolated Ground Wiring Devices
Isolated ground devices help limit electrical noise on the equipment grounding circuit by providing two grounding paths for the installation. The device grounding circuit terminal and grounding contacts are isolated from the grounding path of the metal outlet box, device mounting means, and metal cover or wall plate, thus establishing a separate, dedicated equipment grounding path for connecting noise-sensitive equipment.

250.119 (B) says "where the condiions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the installation. "

That statement doesn't apply to most church maintenance men




[This message has been edited by txsparky (edited 03-29-2003).]


Donnie

#23835 - 03/29/03 10:46 AM Re: Isolated Grounds Again!  
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
Thanks txsparky, I did not know that.

So now the need for a plastic face plates would be 406.5(B) "metal face plates shall be grounded"


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

#23836 - 03/29/03 10:48 AM Re: Isolated Grounds Again!  
mvrandazzo  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 110
Great,
Thanks. You guys anwsered alot of questions. I will check my supplier for 12-2 MC IG. Also, I considered using 12-3 and taping the red but I didn't think this would be an acceptable method. I appreciate the responses.
Blessings, Mark


#23837 - 03/29/03 11:34 AM Re: Isolated Grounds Again!  
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
By txsparky

Quote
250.119 (B) says "where the conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the installation. "


I understand what you are getting at, but that is a pretty vague code, that is left in the hands of the inspector to determine.

In my area "commercial type" buildings or buildings with management usually will be treated as supervised by management who will hire electricians to do the work, much like the exception to 230.72(C)

But I agree that some inspectors would consider this installation outside the scope of 250.119(B)


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

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