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#210676 - 07/20/13 09:48 AM 680.25
Stu T Offline
Member

Registered: 03/17/01
Posts: 28
Loc: Stamford, CT
I was recently hired to make corrections to a job originally done by the home owner. The home owner has moved away and is trying to get a final inspection so that he can sell the house. I called the inspector and asked him what violations needed to be corrected. His reply blew me away because I have never herd an interpretation of the code like this one.

Here's the layout, picture this:
400 Amp, underground service, to a 320 Amp, outdoor meter pan, the meter pan has no main breakers, it's lugs out only. There are two distributions panels each one having it's own 200 Amp main circuit breaker. The wiring method between the meter pan and the two main-distribution panels is #4/0Alu SEU cable. Each SEU cable is no more then 4 feet. Everything in the panels looks code compliant, including all grounding & bonding.

Now there's the problem, the inspector is stating that because there is a swimming pool on the premises the SEU cable between the meter pan and the main-distribution panel which serves the pool must be replaced with a wiring method specified in 680.25 (A) (we are still on the 2005).
He sites 680.25 as his reason.

I fully understand the restrictions and mandatory wiring methods to be used from a main panel to a sub-panel serving pool loads (feeders & branch circuits). But I do not be-leave it is the intention of 680.25 to apply these restrictions to the wiring methods prior to the main switch. It basically boils down to, do we need to have an insulated equipment grounding conductor starting at the meter or service head.

For clarification I asked the inspector the following question: so if I had a single family house with a 200 Amp overhead service wired with Aluminum SEU cable as the wiring method between the point of attachment and the meter pan, that house could not have a swimming pool, given everything is new and we are not applying any of the exceptions. His reply was "correct".

Since he's citing 680.25:
680.25 Feeders. These provisions shall apply to any feeder on the supply side of the panel-boards supplying branch circuits for pool equipment covered in Part II of this article and on the load side of the service equipment of source of a separately derived system.

He's using the part stating "AND ON THE LOAD SIDE OF THE SERVICE EQUIPMENT". Well I have to admit, it does seem like he might be on to something because the SEU is on the load side of the meter pan, but is the meter pan considered "service equipment". I can't be-leave that this was the intent of 680.25
I would appreciate any comments on this subject.

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2014 / 2011 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides
#210680 - 07/20/13 10:38 AM Re: 680.25 [Re: Stu T]
HotLine1 Offline

Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6786
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
Stu:
IMHO, the 'load side' of the service equipment is anything past the first means of disconnect.

This is from the '11 NEC Article 100 definitions:
"Service Equipment. The necessary equipment, usually consisting of a circuit breaker(s) or switch(es) and fuse(s) and their accessories, connected to the load end of service conductors to a building or other structure, or an otherwise designated area, and intended to constitute the main control and cutoff of the supply."

Now, what is the actual scope of work that is being inspected? The pool, or the 320 service??

Would you be allowed by your POCO to have a GEC within the 320 meter pan? Here in NJ (PSE&G) that is a no-no. The GEC is at the first means of disconnect (your 200 amp panels) Is the inspector intimating that you need a 'main'?
_________________________
John

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#210683 - 07/20/13 12:39 PM Re: 680.25 [Re: Stu T]
gfretwell Offline

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9012
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
Exception: An existing feeder between an existing remote panelboard and service equipment shall be permitted to run in flexible metal conduit or an approved cable assembly that includes an equipment grounding conductor within its outer sheath. The equipment grounding conductor shall comply with 250.24(A)(5).
_________________________
Greg Fretwell

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#210684 - 07/20/13 01:20 PM Re: 680.25 [Re: Stu T]
HotLine1 Offline

Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6786
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
Greg:
The OP stated that the exceptions will not be used.

My question within my comments above is:

What is the inspection for?? Pool, Service?? or ??
_________________________
John

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#210686 - 07/20/13 04:52 PM Re: 680.25 [Re: HotLine1]
Stu T Offline
Member

Registered: 03/17/01
Posts: 28
Loc: Stamford, CT
The pool came 1st, then at some point after the pool was installed, the owner replaced the service. Just so we are clear, this whole thing has to do with the wiring method from the main-less meter pan to the main switch, beyond this is not an issue.

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#210687 - 07/20/13 04:57 PM Re: 680.25 [Re: HotLine1]
Stu T Offline
Member

Registered: 03/17/01
Posts: 28
Loc: Stamford, CT
The Inspection is for the Service.

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#210688 - 07/20/13 06:12 PM Re: 680.25 [Re: Stu T]
shortcircuit Offline
Member

Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 608
Loc: massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Stu T
I was recently hired to make corrections to a job originally done by the home owner. The home owner has moved away and is trying to get a final inspection so that he can sell the house. I called the inspector and asked him what violations needed to be corrected. His reply blew me away because I have never herd an interpretation of the code like this one.

Here's the layout, picture this:
400 Amp, underground service, to a 320 Amp, outdoor meter pan, the meter pan has no main breakers, it's lugs out only. There are two distributions panels each one having it's own 200 Amp main circuit breaker. The wiring method between the meter pan and the two main-distribution panels is #4/0Alu SEU cable. Each SEU cable is no more then 4 feet. Everything in the panels looks code compliant, including all grounding & bonding.

Now there's the problem, the inspector is stating that because there is a swimming pool on the premises the SEU cable between the meter pan and the main-distribution panel which serves the pool must be replaced with a wiring method specified in 680.25 (A) (we are still on the 2005).
He sites 680.25 as his reason.

I fully understand the restrictions and mandatory wiring methods to be used from a main panel to a sub-panel serving pool loads (feeders & branch circuits). But I do not be-leave it is the intention of 680.25 to apply these restrictions to the wiring methods prior to the main switch. It basically boils down to, do we need to have an insulated equipment grounding conductor starting at the meter or service head.

For clarification I asked the inspector the following question: so if I had a single family house with a 200 Amp overhead service wired with Aluminum SEU cable as the wiring method between the point of attachment and the meter pan, that house could not have a swimming pool, given everything is new and we are not applying any of the exceptions. His reply was "correct".

Since he's citing 680.25:
680.25 Feeders. These provisions shall apply to any feeder on the supply side of the panel-boards supplying branch circuits for pool equipment covered in Part II of this article and on the load side of the service equipment of source of a separately derived system.

He's using the part stating "AND ON THE LOAD SIDE OF THE SERVICE EQUIPMENT". Well I have to admit, it does seem like he might be on to something because the SEU is on the load side of the meter pan, but is the meter pan considered "service equipment". I can't be-leave that this was the intent of 680.25
I would appreciate any comments on this subject.



I disagree with the inspectors interpretation. The line and load conductors of the meter pan are service conductors. This has nothing to do with 680.25 which covers feeders.

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#210689 - 07/20/13 06:55 PM Re: 680.25 [Re: Stu T]
gfretwell Offline

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9012
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
John is right, until you get to the service disconnect, they are service conductors.

Quote:
Service Conductors. The conductors from the service point to the service disconnecting means.
article 100

That is why you need that hardware to be marked "suitable for use as service equipment"
_________________________
Greg Fretwell

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#210691 - 07/21/13 11:55 AM Re: 680.25 [Re: Stu T]
HotLine1 Offline

Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6786
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
OK, I have to ask....what does an existing pool have to do with a service upgrade??

IMHO, It is time to respectfully speak to this inspectors superior! Hopefully, he has one.
_________________________
John

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#210694 - 07/22/13 01:33 PM Re: 680.25 [Re: shortcircuit]
Wire101 Offline
New Member

Registered: 05/09/13
Posts: 2
Loc: New Jersey
New in New Jersey
Like to know how you made out with the pool
Having. kind of same problem
New pool inspector says I can't use. UF
Does not have cover on ground
340.108 the cable shall be permitted to have an insulated or bare grounding conductor
Can't find any thing like it in 680
680.25 (A) (1) feeders does not talk about UF.
Thanks
Wire101

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