The Electrical Contractor Network

ECN Electrical Forum
Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals

Books, Tools and Test Equipment for Electrical and Construction Trades

Register Now!

Register Now!

We want your input!

Featured:
   

2017 NEC and Related
2017 NEC
Now Available!

   
Recent Posts
Massive power outage South Australia
by Meadow
Today at 06:46 AM
short circuit??
by Meadow
Today at 06:43 AM
Norwegian power?
by Meadow
Today at 06:36 AM
breaker meltdown
by sparky
09/27/16 07:30 PM
230 or 345 kV transmission lines?
by Vlado
09/24/16 09:33 AM
New in the Gallery:
12.5A through 0.75mm˛ flex (just out of curiosity)
Shout Box

Top Posters (30 Days)
HotLine1 13
sparky 10
sparky66wv 8
gfretwell 8
Vlado 6
Who's Online
0 registered (), 83 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#209392 - 03/25/13 09:07 PM GFCI receptacles
George Little Offline
Member

Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 1492
Loc: Michigan USA
Do GFCI receptacles have a life expectancy similar to smoke alarms. Smoke alarms have a life expectancy of 10 years and then they should be replaced, how about GFCI?
_________________________
George Little

Top
2014 / 2011 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides
#209400 - 03/25/13 10:51 PM Re: GFCI receptacles [Re: George Little]
gfretwell Offline

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9012
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
With or without adequate surge protection on the service?

WITH,
they probably last 30-40 years or the first bolted fault.

WITHOUT,
When is your next butt kicking thunderstorm?
_________________________
Greg Fretwell

Top
#209403 - 03/26/13 07:10 AM Re: GFCI receptacles [Re: gfretwell]
NickD Offline
Member

Registered: 03/24/13
Posts: 46
Loc: Amish Country, PA
Originally Posted By: gfretwell
With or without adequate surge protection on the service?

WITH,
they probably last 30-40 years or the first bolted fault.

WITHOUT,
When is your next butt kicking thunderstorm?


That seems a bit flimsy, but is that how things are made these days? grin
I've stuck some of the GFCIs here with multiple bolted faults (some intentional, some not wink ) and they don't seem to be all that worse for the wear... they're a bit less sensitive, but they still trip within the margin of safety.

I would agree on the surge protection though... I've seen some very heated discussions on other forums about about the effectiveness of surge protection systems, so many cases being cited of the surge protectors themselves being disintegrated. eek There isn't much that one can do to mitigate a strong, direct hit!

Top
#209407 - 03/26/13 10:42 AM Re: GFCI receptacles [Re: George Little]
gfretwell Offline

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9012
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
I have had 2 die from a bolted fault. They failed "shorted" (no trip no matter what you did)

I think the value of good surge protection is fairly well proven. I live in nature's lightning lab and we get a lot of experience with it.
_________________________
Greg Fretwell

Top
#209408 - 03/26/13 04:29 PM Re: GFCI receptacles [Re: George Little]
HotLine1 Offline

Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6785
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
I lost six 20 amp spec grade, though not a fault of the devices. Flood surge from that 'Sandy Storm'. Two at the dock, & four in the garage.

Had a few over the years as an EC that failed; failed 'open' for no reason that I thought of looking for.
_________________________
John

Top
#209426 - 03/29/13 12:36 AM Re: GFCI receptacles [Re: NickD]
westom Offline
New Member

Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 3
Loc: us
Originally Posted By: NickD
That seems a bit flimsy, but is that how things are made these days?

Older GFCIs could fail and remain conductive. Therefore not trip when most needed. Newer designs will not reset once damaged.

Damage is typically due to a different type of current. Current does not enter on one AC wire and leave on another. A GFCI destructive current enters on any or all wires in the same direction. And then finds some other and destructive path outgoing from the GFCI.

Protection from that type of current means every wire connects low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to a common earth ground before entering. One 'whole house' protector is typically best protection for a GFCI.

Protection increases as distance between the protector and GFCI increases. Protection increases as that wire to earth is every foot shorter. Yes, foot. Because distance to earth and quality of the electrode(s) is critical. That protection is necessary so that even direct lightning strikes do not cause damage.

A GFCI is an important safety device. Effective surge protection for a GFCI means protection exists later for a human.


Edited by westom (03/29/13 12:43 AM)

Top
#209427 - 03/29/13 08:11 AM Re: GFCI receptacles [Re: George Little]
harold endean Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/02
Posts: 2248
Loc: Boonton, NJ
Mine have been in for 15-20 years(?) and I don't think I remember a problem with any of them. Maybe I lost one but I can't remember. Being I am up in the mountains and in the woods, my trees take lots of hits from the lightning. Just walk out in the back yard and you see trees with large scars on the bark where the lightning flowed. In the old house ( right next door to me) one large lightning bolt hit a tree on the property and took of 5 light bulbs and 3 dimmers in my house.

Top
#209428 - 03/29/13 08:12 AM Re: GFCI receptacles [Re: George Little]
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 5299
Loc: Blue Collar Country
When personal body armor ("bulletproof vests") first became common, someone wondered how the standard army "flak jacket" would perform. I mean, they were never presented as any form of bullet protection, but still ....?

Well, it took a good fifteen years or so until, around 1990, someone actually tested the army flak jackets to the vest standards. (Answer, btw: just under 'level 3' protection).

Relevance here?

The GFCI receptacle has never been tested as a surge suppression device. Yet, we regularly see them die when exposed to significant surges. Wire one to 240 and see, if you doubt me!

Let's see: $16 receptacle of $500 digital TV? Which do I want to replace?

I'd like to see the ordinary GFCI tested to surge suppressor standards, and find out where they really come out. Maybe they're really a useful alternative to 'proper' surge suppression.

Why did surge suppressor receptacles never catch on? Well, when they came out, they cost $40, quite a bit more than a $15 power strip with built-in surge suppression. Since you'd need the power strip anyway, why bother with the receptacle?

Top
#209430 - 03/29/13 09:54 AM Re: GFCI receptacles [Re: George Little]
gfretwell Offline

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9012
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
GFCIs offer virtually zero surge protection. There may be some small attenuation of a low level transient in the toroid current transformer but it would be about what you get from an overhand knot in the power cord.

Effective surge protection is based on several levels of protection, coupled to a good ground electrode system.
_________________________
Greg Fretwell

Top
#209441 - 03/31/13 08:44 PM Re: GFCI receptacles [Re: George Little]
George Little Offline
Member

Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 1492
Loc: Michigan USA
Let me restate the question if I can: At our last IAEI seminar in March here in Michigan, a statement was made that GFCI receptacles needed to be replaced similar to smoke alarms. In the case of smoke alarms the manufacturers say in their poop sheet that 10 years is end of life for their smoke alarms and they need to be replaced. In fact some will sound an alarm when they need to be replaced (so they say). The question becomes is the same true of GFCI receptacles based on their poop sheet? We asked the UL guy art our seminar and he didn't know.
_________________________
George Little

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >



ECN Electrical Forums - sponsored by Electrical Contractor Network - Electrical and Code Related Discussion for Electrical Contractors, Electricians, Inspectors, Instructors, Engineers and other related Professionals