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#204122 - 11/14/11 01:31 PM Upgrading old sub panel
Matto1225 Offline
New Member

Registered: 11/14/11
Posts: 1
Loc: Michigan
Hello, just wanted to say first of all I did search for an answer on this but its hard for me to get a straight answer out of some of the threads.

So here it is. I have an attached garage on my house with a pretty old sub panel(screw in fuses) that is fed by a 6/3 wire to give me 2 hots and the neutral. No ground.

I want to upgrade this to a breaker type sub panel with a few extra spaces so I can do a few more things in the garage. I would like to avoid running an entire new 4 wire feed to the sub panel and reuse as much as I can as the house panel and sub panel are very far apart.

I do have my well point about 10' from the sub panel in the garage as well.

So here is the list of questions:

1.) Can I use the 6/3 wire currently feeding the fuse box?

2.) If adding a ground is needed can I run a ground wire to the well point from the sub panel? Just FYI the MAIN house panel is grounded to the well point already as well as two ground rods.

3.) How would I configure the sub panel as far as bonding or not, adding a seperate ground bar in it or connecting ground and neutral wires to same bar.

Any help is appreciated. thank you much!

Matt

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#204123 - 11/14/11 02:37 PM Re: Upgrading old sub panel [Re: Matto1225]
electure Offline

Member

Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 4225
Loc: Fullerton, CA USA
Matto
Q1.) No. You'll need a ground at the sub. You'll have to run a 4 wire feeder from the main panel.

Q2.) No. You'll need to run a 4 wire feeder from the main panel. The equipment ground needs to be in the same cable as the feeder.

Q3.) You'll need both an insulated neutral bar and a ground bar, with the respective conductors connected to each

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#204124 - 11/14/11 02:39 PM Re: Upgrading old sub panel [Re: Matto1225]
HotLine1 Offline

Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6785
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
Matt:

Welcome to ECN Forums!

Your profile indicates that you are a 'general contractor', not an electrical contractor/electrician. Is that correct??
_________________________
John

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#204125 - 11/14/11 03:36 PM Re: Upgrading old sub panel [Re: electure]
Texas_Ranger Offline
Member

Registered: 12/17/01
Posts: 2331
Loc: Vienna, Austria
Quote:
Q2.) No. You'll need to run a 4 wire feeder from the main panel. The equipment ground needs to be in the same cable as the feeder.

Does it? I was under the impression that EGC are exempt from the "all conductors must be in one cable" rule.

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#204126 - 11/14/11 06:08 PM Re: Upgrading old sub panel [Re: Matto1225]
Tesla Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 1280
Loc: Sacramento, CA
Texas...

You're correct... but it's still going to have to bond back with the Service if this daughter panel is to operate correctly.

It would also appear that a fresh GEC needs to be installed at the outbuilding...

If the outbuilding has Zero conducting paths back to the Service bonding would appear optional.

In which case one might think that the feeder could be treated as if it were a SDS.

If the feeder uses an overhead run then I'd expect bonding to be required.
_________________________
Tesla

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#204128 - 11/14/11 07:20 PM Re: Upgrading old sub panel [Re: Matto1225]
electure Offline

Member

Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 4225
Loc: Fullerton, CA USA
Tesla:
The OP said this is an attached garage, not an outbuilding

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#204132 - 11/14/11 09:35 PM Re: Upgrading old sub panel [Re: Matto1225]
gfretwell Offline

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9012
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
I believe the only legal answer is to rerun the cable in 4 wire.
_________________________
Greg Fretwell

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#204133 - 11/15/11 07:28 AM Re: Upgrading old sub panel [Re: Tesla]
Texas_Ranger Offline
Member

Registered: 12/17/01
Posts: 2331
Loc: Vienna, Austria
Originally Posted By: Tesla
Texas...

You're correct... but it's still going to have to bond back with the Service if this daughter panel is to operate correctly.

Of course, but a 3-wire cable plus separate grounding conductor to the main panel would achieve that just as well as a 4-wire cable. Or am I missing something?

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#204134 - 11/15/11 08:05 AM Re: Upgrading old sub panel [Re: Matto1225]
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 5299
Loc: Blue Collar Country
Yes, Texas, you missed something.

The OP needs to run a ground wire between the panels. This wire would be a "EGC," or EQUIPMENT grounding conductor.

The OP suggests that he instead run a separate wire to his well. This would be a "GEC," or grounding ELECTRODE conductor. Different wire, different purpose.

The OP's idea fails, as 'grounding' the panel to the well will do nothing to help fault current return to the PoCo transformer. He is confusing the electrical 'ground' with the earth under his feet.

A word to the OP: There are sizing issues here as well. You probably ought to have a chat with an electrician. We're out of DIY territory.

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#204135 - 11/15/11 10:41 AM Re: Upgrading old sub panel [Re: Matto1225]
gfretwell Offline

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9012
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
The problem I see is the neutral. A 2 wire with ground cable usually has an uninsulated EGC that can't be used as the neutral (plus it will usually be smaller than the ungrounded conductors) and there is no provision to run a neutral outside of the cable or raceway.
If, by some strange reason, they did run a 3 wire (red, black white) cable with all conductors insulated he might be able to establish his EGC with a separate wire.

As for just grabbing the grounding electrode conductor at the well point, You might be able to make a case for it.

Quote:
250.130 Equipment Grounding Conductor Connections.
Equipment grounding conductor connections at the source of separately derived systems shall be made in accordance with 250.30(A)(1). Equipment grounding conductor connections at service equipment shall be made as indicated in 250.130(A) or (B).

(A) For Grounded Systems. The connection shall be made by bonding the equipment grounding conductor to the grounded service conductor and the grounding electrode conductor.
_________________________
Greg Fretwell

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