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#200112 - 03/21/11 06:40 AM the Kobayashi Maru
sparky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5545
of contracting seems to be the contract itself.

2 pages? 20 pages? simple? complex? are we held to what we didn't say as much as to what we did say?

I'd like to create some sort of boiler plate template, something to start with , the particulars can be modified pertinent to the job(s) from there

So here's what i propose, copy paste what you will , either bits of your own contractual escapades, or googled up ones

This should come naturally to some of you have been doing this since God wore short pants, or perhaps some of you who've been on the bereaucratic side of the fence viewing the same repetitive mistakes

Perhaps we can even work toward a collective effort, bodly going where no sparkies have gone before !

I'll start>


Permits and Inspections~ via {electrical company} to address NFPA 70 only.

Additions and/or Omissions~to be provided via written change orders @ cost+, including changes and/or additional requirements via federal, state and/or local AHJ


~S~

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Business, Office, Estimating, Legal:
#200117 - 03/21/11 07:54 AM Re: the Kobayashi Maru [Re: sparky]
HotLine1 Offline

Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6804
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
This should really get interesting shortly!!
_________________________
John

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#200122 - 03/21/11 10:25 AM Re: the Kobayashi Maru [Re: sparky]
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: Blue Collar Country
Well, there seems to be a need for two basic contract designs.

One is for the electrical portion of a broader job.

The other is for repairs, service calls, etc.

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#200125 - 03/21/11 11:39 AM Re: the Kobayashi Maru [Re: sparky]
HotLine1 Offline

Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6804
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
Gentlemen:
FWIW, for 'small' jobs I used a 'Proposal' form that was self generated. Names, jobsite, and description of work. Explanation of Insurance/WC, and the terms of payment. Spelled out the terms for any additional work that was requested, and that it MUST be in writing, signed by a 'responsible person' with the additional costs. Explained permit and inspection responsibilities, and that final payment is NOT payable until final inspection and approval. (That is NJ State Law)

For other jobs, I used the AIA contract format, which was drawn up by the architect of record.

T&M work was performed under a written contract which stated labor rates, travel (if app), and materials MU%. The usual legal items, and that was that.

The above worked for 25+ years, and there were quite a few 'handshake' deals that also were non-eventful.

Unfortunatley, todays climate requires more 'input' from the legal scholars for any contractor to stay out of trouble.
_________________________
John

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#200129 - 03/21/11 12:35 PM Re: the Kobayashi Maru [Re: sparky]
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: Blue Collar Country
Well, let's look at our past jobs, as well as shows like "Holmes on Homes," for some guidance. Just what need the contract address?

Sure, we can worry forever about ancillary issues like labor disputes, inheritance, changes of ownership, etc. Sure, these things are important, but they're secondary to defining just what the job is that we are trying to perform.

All too often, contracts seem designed to confuse rather than clarify. You say "I'll run a new circuit," while the customer has called you because 'the light doesn't work.' An awful lot of disputes arise when the new circuit is run, but the light still doesn't work.

Apart from the 'electrical' part of the job, we need to specify just who protects the site, who cleans the site, who hauls off the trash, who fixes the holes in the wall, etc.

We need to be clear as to what obstacles we expect to encounter - and which ones are beyond the scope of the work. I mean, what if the simple drywall partition turns out to have a solid concrete and rebar fill?

Finally, we need to be explicit as to job scheduling and payment arrangements.

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#200130 - 03/21/11 12:36 PM Re: the Kobayashi Maru [Re: sparky]
ghost307 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 884
Loc: Chicago Illinois USA
A lot of the langauge in the Specs and NEC are due to the excessive quantities of "barracks lawyers" out there.
Remember when we didn't get into arguments about 'bathrooms' vs. 'powder rooms'?
Remember when everyone knew what a 'building' was?

A couple of years ago at an IAEI conference, the speaker said that he was trying to write a definition for a kitchen so people wouldn't be able to get around it by playing word games.
He said that when his wife found out what he had been working so hard on, her only comment was "just how stupid are these people?"

I have an old Spec book from when my uncle had an business building put up in the early 1900's. The Specs (including signatures) was 23 pages.
This worked because it was able to spec the plumbing with "use all quality fixtures" instead of taking 8 pages to describe the detailed workings of a toilet.

It was pointed out to me once upon a time just how odd it was that entire civilizations can be run with 10 Commandments, but it takes 500 pages to run a parking lot.

smile

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#200133 - 03/21/11 12:45 PM Re: the Kobayashi Maru [Re: sparky]
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: Blue Collar Country
Only 5,500 pages?

(Moderator: Irrelevant political tangent has been edited away)

Just remember you're not getting hired by the 'barracks lawyers.' We're in the business of pleasing customers. As is all too clear in "Holmes on Homes," folks are not getting distressed because the job went 5 minutes overtime or $5 over budget. For the usual customer to get upset, it takes a lot more than that.

So let's write our contracts in terms folks actually understand. The customer doesn't know, or care, about the distinctions between a ground rod, ground hog, or hole hawg.
laugh

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#200145 - 03/22/11 03:36 AM Re: the Kobayashi Maru [Re: HotLine1]
sparky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5545
Originally Posted By: HotLine1

[quote
Gentlemen:
Explained permit and inspection responsibilities, and that final payment is NOT payable until final inspection and approval. (That is NJ State Law)


it's a law down there Hotone?

can i presume this also works in the contractor's favor?

Quote:
For other jobs, I used the AIA contract format, which was drawn up by the architect of record


seen a few, tried googling up a free download, (no soap so far)>

http://consusgroup.com/contracts/america...CFQQ65QodUiWP_Q


~S~



Edited by sparky (03/22/11 03:37 AM)

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#200147 - 03/22/11 04:13 AM Re: the Kobayashi Maru [Re: renosteinke]
sparky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5545
Quote:
renosteinke]
Quote:
Well, let's look at our past jobs, as well as shows like "Holmes on Homes," for some guidance. Just what need the contract address?

Sure, we can worry forever about ancillary issues like labor disputes, inheritance, changes of ownership, etc. Sure, these things are important, but they're secondary to defining just what the job is that we are trying to perform.

All too often, contracts seem designed to confuse rather than clarify. You say "I'll run a new circuit," while the customer has called you because 'the light doesn't work.' An awful lot of disputes arise when the new circuit is run, but the light still doesn't work.


true dat Reno.....

a good example, probably most common might be being asked if the wiring is 'safe'.

safe being a very relative term, usually only gains perspective with a client's understanding of his/her wiring.

an educated customer privy to options and input being more apt to pay their bills, most of us are caught up repetitively bleating wiring 101.

pursuant to this goal a ditty i wrote to a concerned group after an exploratory in a commercial building>

wiring status>
The (>>>>>>>) building has a new incoming electrical service, it is enough of a service to run the electrical demand there now, lighting, power, appliances. There are about 2 dozen circuits in a 30 circuit panel. Only 1/2 dozen of these are of older varieties, the rest is grounded thermoplastic. As the circuitry branches out, it assumes older methods, especially as seen in the attic & second floor. . In order to better understand the wiring methods incorporated there (representative of every sort since kerosene lighting) , and the need to address each variety the list is as follows. Safety being a relative term, the powers that be will divide all the below into two distinctions, grounded, or ungrounded (the 3rd bare protective grounding conductor being the desired goal)

K&T > Knob & Tubing , single conductors run on individual porcelian stops , no grounding (3rd bare protective wire) conductor

BX > metal jacketed flexible cable, no grounding conductor

Tar & cloth Romex> pre-theromplastic , most without a grounding conductor, some with the lesser undersized grounding conductor

NM Romex- The first thermoplastic wiring method w/ full sized grounding conductor

NM-B - the current thermoplastic w/ full sized grounding conductor

MC cable- the modern BX w/ full sized grounding conductor

EMT - electrical metallic tubing w/ individual conductors (and green grounding conductor)



Quote:
Apart from the 'electrical' part of the job, we need to specify just who protects the site, who cleans the site, who hauls off the trash, who fixes the holes in the wall, etc.


i would be interested in how this might be worded.....

Quote:
We need to be clear as to what obstacles we expect to encounter - and which ones are beyond the scope of the work. I mean, what if the simple drywall partition turns out to have a solid concrete and rebar fill?


one word> lead

another word> asbestos

my answer to either on a renovation contract>


open frame wiring runs, or surface mount wiring methods, access to enclosed, concealed , or otherwise not open frame by others


Quote:
Finally, we need to be explicit as to job scheduling and payment arrangements.


GC's are mostly chronologically challenged, dialing in the season on job is sometimes a feat in itself , as to $$$, how's this sound?>

______down, % paid consummate of % of electrical work completed
~S~

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#200149 - 03/22/11 04:24 AM Re: the Kobayashi Maru [Re: ghost307]
sparky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5545
Originally Posted By: ghost307

It was pointed out to me once upon a time just how odd it was that entire civilizations can be run with 10 Commandments, but it takes 500 pages to run a parking lot.

smile


lol!, this is civilization? i'll go out on a theological limb and conject it's gone waaaaay past small claims, we're talking class action!



~S~

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