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#197970 - 01/05/11 02:22 AM Reverse Engineering my Induction Motor
Slickinsox Offline
New Member

Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 3
Loc: NSW
This is a a 2 speed Nuva Ibmei HV 21 induction motor from a washing machine I will be using for a tumbler project. Alas there is no wiring diagram on the casing so I need to reverse engineer the schematic.



Its a 2-speed 240v AC reversible motor with five wires to the plug as as viewed from above (left to right and top to bottom);

1.black stripe, 2.blue, 3.yellow,
4.no wire, 5.red and 6.brown.

There is no earth wire on the motor so the unit needs to be earthed from the mains supply.

Resistance between terminals is as follows;
1/2 9
1/3 50
1/5 23
1/6 50
2/3 57.5
2/5 35
2/6 57.5
3/5 75
3/6 50
5/6 75

Testing the wires on a motor in a host machine indicates;

1. always has 240v from neutral
2. and 5. are switched via the controller for fast speed
3. and 6. are switched via the controller for slow speed and as said before connected to the startup capacitor
2. and 3. where connected to the control unit are insulated whereas 5. and 6. are bare


Given there is no wiring diagram on the casing or inside the washing machine reverse engineering the schematic is the go. Why would there be a pair of wires for each mode if nuetral is always supplied to terminal 1?

PS we run 240V household wiring in Australia.


Edited by Slickinsox (01/05/11 02:36 AM)

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#197976 - 01/05/11 10:16 AM Re: Reverse Engineering my Induction Motor [Re: Slickinsox]
gfretwell Offline

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9012
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
Have you poked around on the internet. There are a couple sites that talk about how to reuse appliance motors that we use in the US. You may also be able to find the actual wiring diagram for that machine if you have the model number.
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#197990 - 01/05/11 11:00 PM Re: Reverse Engineering my Induction Motor [Re: Slickinsox]
Trumpy Offline

Member

Registered: 07/05/02
Posts: 8530
Loc: SI,New Zealand
Hi there,
You're going to need the controller that originally ran this motor to operate it.
This is not a standard 230V motor, hence all the tappings on the windings.
It will more than likely use some sort of PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) speed control as is common in most modern washing machines.
Putting 230V across any of the connections will more than likely kill it.
_________________________
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#197993 - 01/06/11 09:16 AM Re: Reverse Engineering my Induction Motor [Re: Slickinsox]
LarryC Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 775
Loc: Winchester, NH, US
Are you sure 3 to 6 is 50 ohms and not closer to 100 ohms?

if 3 to 6 is higher, then the rest of the readings make sense.

Assuming 1 is common,
1) between 1 and 3 is a 50 ohm winding.
2) between 1 and 6 is another 50 ohm winding.
3) between 1 and 5 is a 25 ohm winding.
4) between 1 and 2 is a 9 ohm winding.

You mention a capacitor. Are there one or two capacitors?

Check down in the Technical section for schematics for two speed reversable split phase motors.

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#197997 - 01/06/11 04:04 PM Re: Reverse Engineering my Induction Motor [Re: LarryC]
Alan Belson Offline
Member

Registered: 03/23/05
Posts: 1801
Loc: Mayenne N. France
I'm with Mike on this. Without the original or a suitable surrogate controller, the motor is probably as dead as corduroy hot pants. The good news is that most washing machines expire due to drum bearings, seals, limescale or doorlock probs, so your local recycling facility will have a vast heap of spares. I find the best way 'in' is to hypnotise an employee with a box of clean copper scrap in px for a fumble in the jumble.
Sounds an interesting project. Best of luck. cheers
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#197998 - 01/06/11 04:39 PM Re: Reverse Engineering my Induction Motor [Re: Slickinsox]
Slickinsox Offline
New Member

Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 3
Loc: NSW
Unfortunately even after several calls and reassurance I was not trying to fix a broken machine, the service agent AND the distribution company both refused to hand over the circuit diagram. Claiming that a Joe public could kill himself if they handed over such technical details, not to mention the loss of revenue from giving out secret files on 25 year old washing machines!!!

Then a call to an independent contractor who put me onto a rival distributer found me a copy of the old manual i wanted. So here is the schematic and specs of the motor (hopefully I have sized it correctly) My motor has 5 wires and hence no tachometer as the depicted one with 7 has. Of course my pin numbering does not yet correlate with the schematic, so I may edit my original post so everyone is talking the same language. Ok I cant edit my original post any longer so here is the cross relationship of wiring;

My No. 1. Their No. 5.
My No. 2. & 5. Their No. 6. & 2.
My No. 3. & 6. Their No. 7. & 3.



Fortunately I have this exact same motor in a working washing machine, which is how I have been able to test insitu. I also have all the spares from the sacrificed machine including the capacitor and the controller. The controller appears to be only a mechanical timing/sequence device rather than a pulsing unit. I can put up a picture of it if required. I also have an overall circuit diagram of the whole machine but it shows no detail inside the controller.


Edited by Slickinsox (01/06/11 04:52 PM)

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#198001 - 01/06/11 05:01 PM Re: Reverse Engineering my Induction Motor [Re: Slickinsox]
Slickinsox Offline
New Member

Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 3
Loc: NSW
Sorry about the sizing of the upload, I cant go back and edit that so here is another post of the diagram;



Pin 5 with constant neutral 240v has the thermal overload cutout. TOC.
What is still not obvious is why there are two power supplies in addition to pin 5. to each of the 2 and 16 pole coils. The capacitor is connected to 3. and 7. (16 pole) via the controller.


Edited by Slickinsox (01/06/11 05:06 PM)

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#198037 - 01/09/11 10:57 PM Re: Reverse Engineering my Induction Motor [Re: Slickinsox]
Trumpy Offline

Member

Registered: 07/05/02
Posts: 8530
Loc: SI,New Zealand
OK, mate,
Let's get one thing straight here.
In your Profile you call yourself an Electrical Engineer.
If that is the case, there is no way we are going to nurse you through working out electrical control theory that you should already know.
This is a very simple Permanently split motor and although it has a few different tappings, you should be able to derive the windings and the way they work within the motor using common theory and formulae.
Any electrician worth their salt, should be able to work this out on a sheet of paper.
_________________________
Let's face it, these days if you're not young, you're old - Red Green grin

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#198052 - 01/10/11 11:19 AM Re: Reverse Engineering my Induction Motor [Re: Trumpy]
mikesh Offline
Member

Registered: 06/07/06
Posts: 614
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
Trumpy

Got out of the wrong side of bed? You know as well as most here that just because a guy went to university that they don't necessarily learn anything practical. Second some of those connections are not available for easy testing. I did spend a year in a motor shop and that small winding can't be directly checked from the connection box. Lots of electricians never open a motor connection box or learn to flash a field in a generator. Lot of engineers don't know what end of a screw driver does the work either but they can design a micro-electronic chip that can pilot a spacecraft. I do wonder how a neutral is at 240 volts and not 0?
Sorry, I agree this is a forum for professionals but not all of us possess the same skills. Cutting a poster off at the knees is not in my mind conducive to participation and gives this forum an air of elitism. Some do it your selfers are Qualified too. Your answer makes you look impatient and frankly dissuades discussion. Just because you have the appropriate experience does not necessarily mean everyone does. That is one of the primary reasons for this forum to exist, so we can collectively become better tradesmen.
Second point. In my world travels I have discovered that the term Electrical Engineer does not always mean a University degree in Electrical Engineering.
In some countries I am an electrical engineer. In Canada I am an electrician.


Edited by mikesh (01/10/11 11:25 AM)

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#198070 - 01/11/11 10:19 AM Re: Reverse Engineering my Induction Motor [Re: mikesh]
Tesla Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 1280
Loc: Sacramento, CA
Bare wires = true neutrals.

The TOC is cutting out the path to the return. It's an integral automatic self-closer at 90 degrees C.

The double leads from the power supply provide reverse and forward power.

Try (2) & (6) since (3) & (7) are already connected across the capacitor ( via the cable assembly.

(5) Should be set to ground.

(6) to (5) is FULL power -- note the low resistance of the winding...

(2) to (5) is LOW power -- note the higher resistance of the winding.

Bump it and see if the smoke comes out.

IF you've got the right controller, then all of this is moot. Your task is to simply bring power to it and stop sweating the Italian's.
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Tesla

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