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#197503 - 12/02/10 09:36 PM TIA proposal Spa bonding
gfretwell Offline

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9045
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
There is a proposal to drop the deck bonding requirement for self contained spas. Needless to say it was proposed by the Spa trade group. Comments are open until Jan 14.

http://www.nfpa.org/Assets/files/AboutTheCodes/70/ProposedTIA1005NFPA70.pdf
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#197504 - 12/03/10 05:41 AM Re: TIA proposal Spa bonding [Re: gfretwell]
shortcircuit Offline
Member

Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 608
Loc: massachusetts
With regard to the step potential...
I can't recall ever seeing a self contained Hot Tub installed below grade. The ones I have seen set-up so you can step in at grade level have a non-conductive wooden deck built around them with the tub resting on grade below usually accessible from an existing deck already raised 3-4 feet above grade. It is foolish to install a perimeter bond underneath a wooden deck.

I'm not convinced about the comments in the TIA that the person would jump back away from the tub if they were getting a jolt from putting their hand in the water with their feet on the ground and this is not a hazard.

Okay...what if this person were an adult with a newborn in one arm and places her hand in the water with the other and receives a jolt? Will she jump back and drop the infant...probably...and most likely drop the child causing serious injury or even death.

Hopefully common sense will prevail and not the almighty dollar and they will trash this ridiculous TIA.

shortcircuit

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#197505 - 12/03/10 06:06 AM Re: TIA proposal Spa bonding [Re: shortcircuit]
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: Blue Collar Country
Let's see .... a plastic spa on a wood deck .... just how is one supposed to have a 'step potential?' Just how can you make a equipotential grid out of wood?

In a similar manner, just how do you instal a spa? Why, you take it off the truck and set it on the ground. That's all there is to it. Power? If there's a gas heater, an extension cord will do. Or, have a power line run to a disconnect on the wall - and the HO can just plug it in when he buys the spa 'at a later date.'

What I'm getting at is that there's not much of an opening for enforcement ... of either permit inspections or even contractor licensing.

You might as well pass a law requiring birds to sing on cloudy days. That makes for bad law, as it only creats contempt for all laws.

I am disgusted by innuendo that assumes evil motives to advocates. What about the evil motives on the part of those who sell 'bonding grids?' Just who else do you think will be in the best position to identify issues - apart from those most directly affected?

So where will this all lead? Simple: as things now stand, there is no requirement that spas be listed by anyone. For whatever reasons, the spa industry as a whole -including Jacuzzi itself- has seen no advantage to doing business with UL. Watch for there to next be a proposal to require such listing of spas. Do you believe UL to be composed entirely of angels, with holy motives?

It's not about safety; it's a power grab.

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#197510 - 12/03/10 02:17 PM Re: TIA proposal Spa bonding [Re: renosteinke]
KJay Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/07
Posts: 763
Loc: MA, USA
I always felt that the requirement for an equipotential grid for outdoor hot tubs was ridiculous anyway.
Itís completely useless and unnecessary, IMO. On all the units I wired, even many years ago, the branch circuits were GFCI protected with no equipotential grid installed and to this day, Iím not aware of one single incident where anyone has gotten so much as a tingle from contact with any of this equipment.
Like submitter says in his proposal, where is the data to support this requirement?

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#197513 - 12/03/10 04:53 PM Re: TIA proposal Spa bonding [Re: KJay]
sparky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5545
So where will this all lead? Simple: as things now stand, there is no requirement that spas be listed by anyone. For whatever reasons, the spa industry as a whole -including Jacuzzi itself- has seen no advantage to doing business with UL.

there isn't?

good grief, i thought everything had an NRTL of some sort....

i'm beside myself

~S~

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#197514 - 12/03/10 05:19 PM Re: TIA proposal Spa bonding [Re: sparky]
gfretwell Offline

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9045
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
Spas are usually "listed" by some trade association but these are not NRTLs
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#197515 - 12/03/10 07:45 PM Re: TIA proposal Spa bonding [Re: gfretwell]
sparky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5545
like who? the tooth fairy?

best i could goggle on it>

Component/end-product compatibility is the critical link between certification of a component and certification of the end-product in which the component is used. Use of UL Recognized Components in a spa (or any other product) does not mean the spa itself is UL Listed.

If you're unsure of the exact meaning of a given UL certification (Listing or Recognition), look in the appropriate UL Product Directory for information about a specific product certification and marking information. For example, the Swimming Pool and Spa Equipment category (WABX) begins on page 505 of the 1997 Electrical Construction Equipment Directory. The Directory will also explain any limitations and the extent of UL's evaluation in the information section preceding each product category.

If you've exhausted your information sources, here are some ways we can help. If you have the product name and catalog number, part number or system designation, call UL's Data Services at +1-847-272-8800, ext. 42396. ULDS will help find the UL category for the product in question. If you need to verify a Listing or find a file number for a product bearing a UL Mark, call +1-847-272-4909, or Customer Service at +1-877-ULHELPS. As always, Codes & Technical Services staff members at each UL office will help with other questions you may have concerning UL certifications, code compatibility or product installation.


http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/corporate/aboutul/ulmarks/difference/

kinda s*cks when you take something for granted i guess....

~S~

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#197523 - 12/03/10 09:32 PM Re: TIA proposal Spa bonding [Re: sparky]
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: Blue Collar Country
Look, the status of any spa and UL is a real mess. Some are listed as complete units, some only have the 'skid' of mechanicals listed, and there are at least three other variations of the UL listing out there. So, even if the spa has a UL sticker, there's a lot of uncertainty as to what it means.

The spa industry is by no means the only industry to decide that they don't need anyone telling them how to make their stuff, or that they need someone to endorse their efforst. Hard as it is to believe, not every industry is dominated by trade groups and other monopoly-fostering practices.

I'm NOT being critical or sarcastic. The fact is, even the 'unlisted' spas have a pretty damn good safety record. Yet, I expect there will be a proposal to require them to be listed- and I doubt UL will object.

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#197561 - 12/07/10 12:39 PM Re: TIA proposal Spa bonding [Re: renosteinke]
HotLine1 Offline

Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6804
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
Reno:

A while back, a memo of some sort regarding equipotential bond grid on a wooden deck was circulating, BUT I have not physically seen or read it.

A grid was supposed to be installed on the underside of the wood decking! It took a while to stop laughing, and I just ignored it. Now it seems someone else came upon this....
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#197576 - 12/07/10 07:29 PM Re: TIA proposal Spa bonding [Re: HotLine1]
frenchelectrican Offline

Member

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 938
Loc: Wi/ Paris France { France for ...
I heard that story about that one as far for European side it kinda toss up as well they want to put in equipotential bond grid on wood decking as well but as far we know wood is pretty fairly good with insuating when it is dry but wet now that diffrent story.

One way it make sense but other way what the customer will say about see the grid on the deck so that kinda I don't know what I should say in right word .,,,but with steel decking that I have no question about that

And Did anyone did the actual equipotential bond test on the wood decking { plastique verison as well} ??

Merci,
Marc
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Pas de problme,il marche n'est-ce pas?"(No problem, it works doesn't it?)


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