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#195112 - 07/12/10 06:45 PM SABC Load
George Little Offline
Member

Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 1492
Loc: Michigan USA
Is it permitted to have the waste disposal on the SABC? Code Reference please. Or better yet, where does it say that I can't have the waste disposal on the SABC?
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#195113 - 07/12/10 06:53 PM Re: SABC Load [Re: George Little]
HotLine1 Offline

Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6786
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
George:
'evening....this is from the '08 NEC Handbook...(Commentary...NOT verbatum code)

"Section 210.52(B) requires a minimum of two 20-ampere circuits for all receptacle outlets for the small-appliance loads, including refrigeration equipment, in the kitchen, dining room, pantry, and breakfast room of a dwelling unit. The limited exceptions to what can be connected to these receptacle circuits allow the full capacity of the small-appliance circuits to be dedicated to the kitchen/dining area wall and countertop receptacles for the purposes of supplying cord-and-plug-connected portable appliance loads.
Connecting fastened-in-place appliances such as waste disposers or dishwashers to these circuits would reduce the capacity to supply the typical higher wattage portable loads used in these areas, such as toasters, coffee makers, skillets, mixers, and the like. The Code can control the outlets that these circuits supply but cannot control the number of portable appliances that occupants use in these areas.
No restriction is placed on the number of outlets connected to a general-lighting or small-appliance branch circuit. The minimum number of receptacle outlets in a room is determined by 210.52(A) based on the room perimeter and 210.52(C) for counter spaces. It may be desirable to provide more than the minimum number of receptacle outlets required, thereby further reducing the need for extension cords and cords lying across counters.
Exhibit 210.25 illustrates the application of the requirements of 210.52(B)(1), (B)(2), and (B)(3). The small-appliance branch circuits illustrated in Exhibit 210.25 are not permitted to serve any other outlets, such as might be connected to exhaust hoods or fans, disposals, or dishwashers. The countertop receptacles are also required to be supplied by these two circuits if only the minimum of two circuits is provided for that dwelling. Note that only the counter area is required to be supplied by both of the small-appliance branch circuits. The wall receptacle outlets in the kitchen and dining room are permitted to be supplied by one or both of the circuits, as shown in the two diagrams in Exhibit 210.25."

That help? Or is this one of your .....questions?



Edited by HotLine1 (07/12/10 06:54 PM)
Edit Reason: add: 'from commentary...NOT code
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#195118 - 07/12/10 07:33 PM Re: SABC Load [Re: HotLine1]
gfretwell Offline

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9012
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
The short answer is 210.52(B)(1) lists "wall and floor receptacle outlets"..."all countertop outlets"..."receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment" ... "(2) No Other Outlets".

I don't see disposal or dish washer in the exceptions.

I suppose if they cut a hole in the cabinet, pulled the cord out and plugged it into a "wall outlet" it would be OK but the 36" cord length limit might be an issue.
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#195119 - 07/12/10 07:36 PM Re: SABC Load [Re: HotLine1]
George Little Offline
Member

Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 1492
Loc: Michigan USA
Thanks Hotline, I've read that information in the Handbook and I don't have a problem with the commentary, use it myself to help understand the actual code. My question is not really answered here because it only makes a statement about the consequences of putting large appliance loads on the SABC:

"Connecting fastened-in-place appliances such as waste disposers or dishwashers to these circuits would reduce the capacity to supply the typical higher wattage portable loads used in these areas, such as toasters, coffee makers, skillets, mixers, and the like."

The code does not say anywhere that fixed appliances are not allowed on the SABC that I can see. So unless the appliance manufacturer specifies an individual branch circuit I can't write a violation if they put t on the SABC.


Edited by George Little (07/12/10 07:37 PM)
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#195121 - 07/12/10 07:46 PM Re: SABC Load [Re: George Little]
HotLine1 Offline

Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6786
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
George:
IMHO, this is the key...""Section 210.52(B) requires a minimum of two 20-ampere circuits for all receptacle outlets for the small-appliance loads, including refrigeration equipment, in the kitchen, dining room, pantry, and breakfast room of a dwelling unit."

I have not had anyone debate the issue that a GD or DW should not be on the countertop circuits.

All that said, any discussion about this usually involves a 'modest' kitchen, as opposed to the McMansions, or custom houses that are being built. One condo developement ran the refrig outlet on the SABC, which is OK code wise, & the QC rep from the builder had a canary. Needless to say, the guy who OKs the checks got his 12/2 frig circuit in the end. These units had a DW circuit & a GD circuit, a micro circuit & 2 SABCs in each kitchen.

Another angle is what is the HP/amperage of the GD? I've seen some that are 11.5 amps.

Take care & stay safe.
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#195125 - 07/12/10 09:19 PM Re: SABC Load [Re: HotLine1]
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 5300
Loc: Blue Collar Country
It appears to me that the code simply requires a minimum of two 20-amp circuits to serve the kitchen / pantry / dining areas. It does not require both circuits to serve the countertop, or restrict their use to countertop appliances.

Concievably, you could run the circuit without GFCI protection to all receptacles, except those serving the countertops.

I believe that the commonly held belief that the two circuits can only serve the countertop is based upon a pair of misconceptions.
First, the 'no other outlets' can be read to mean 'no outlets in other areas,' and maybe even 'you can't have the lights on them.' I don't see it as meaning 'they can only serve the countertops.'
Second, I think we are confusing good design with code compliance. After all, it has been routine for us to put the diswasher/disposal on its' own circuit, as well as the fridge, and sometimes even the microwave. These were/are design choices, not code requirements.

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#195127 - 07/12/10 10:12 PM Re: SABC Load [Re: renosteinke]
gfretwell Offline

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9012
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
Reno, since it does exempt a clock and refrigeration equipment specifically it certainly looks like disposals are not exempted from "no other outlets" and "under the sink" is not one of the locations where you can have your SABC in 210.52(B).
It would not fly if I was signing off on it.
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#195141 - 07/13/10 05:27 AM Re: SABC Load [Re: gfretwell]
George Little Offline
Member

Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 1492
Loc: Michigan USA
Well gang, the consensus is that the disposal should not be on the SABC albeit there is no specific words that say that: "fixed appliances are not permitted on the SABC". So once again this BB has come through. I also posted this question on Mike Holt's BB and those guys are not as tactful as the ones on this BB. They jump on you with every word you say.


Edited by George Little (07/13/10 05:27 AM)
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#195145 - 07/13/10 06:52 AM Re: SABC Load [Re: George Little]
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 5300
Loc: Blue Collar Country
We don't do laws, or trials, by 'consensus.' Where the language is unclear, the benefit goes to the individual, at the expense of enforcement. That's one of our basic principles.

The code wriiten poorly? No surprise there. The code exceeding its' own mandate and getting into design work? I'd say so.

I love it. The NEC starts out, in the very first paragraphs, by teiilg us that it is not a design manual, that it is not an instruction book, etc .... then folks pile in all manner of design-specific mandates. Some say "We can't enforce Article 90," then in the next breath say we'll enforce what we infer from the poor language and meddle with design.

Remember, our earliest laws placed limits on the government - not the governed.

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#195147 - 07/13/10 08:25 AM Re: SABC Load [Re: renosteinke]
HotLine1 Offline

Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6786
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
When all is said and done, it' sthe AHJ who approves or rejects the install based upon the AHJs interpertation of the Code that he is obligated to enforce.

I receive multiple inquiries regarding 'code' and 'design' issues at work. I can answer code related issues, but not design as an AHJ.

The major key is ...the NEC is NOT design, nor instructional, but the minimum acceptable standards that are required.

Again, the interpertation of the local AHJ is the answer that applies.

George, are you satisfied???
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