The Electrical Contractor Network

ECN Electrical Forum
Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals

Books, Tools and Test Equipment for Electrical and Construction Trades

Register Now!

Register Now!

We want your input!

Featured:
   

2017 NEC and Related
2017 NEC
Now Available!

   
Recent Posts
Industrail Control Panel bonding per 409.108
by sparkyinak
Yesterday at 03:17 PM
Calling all Non-US members!! (Non-US only)
by aussie240
12/07/16 02:39 AM
Photo Upload Tutorial
by DanK
12/06/16 11:35 PM
Sprinklered equipment 26-008
by bigpapa
12/02/16 04:24 PM
On Delay Relay with Auto Reset
by Potseal
12/01/16 09:59 AM
New in the Gallery:
12.5A through 0.75mm≤ flex (just out of curiosity)
Shout Box

Top Posters (30 Days)
gfretwell 13
HotLine1 9
Texas_Ranger 8
sparkyinak 8
Trumpy 6
Who's Online
0 registered (), 208 Guests and 6 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#194674 - 06/15/10 09:09 PM Damp Location
harold endean Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/02
Posts: 2248
Loc: Boonton, NJ
I just got ask another couple of questions. This time about damp location sec 334.12(B)(4) states that you can't use NM wire in a damp location. So this EC calls me up and asks if he can use NM above a ceiling of an unheated garage which will not be insulated but it will have a roof over it. I ask him if he feels it will be a damp location and he said no. Does anyone else have a feeling about this location?

2ND question, he said that other AHJ's told him that if he uses a receptacle for a dishwasher and it is installed under the sink, it has to be GFI protection because that area is also considered a "damp" location.

Any thoughts on this one?

Top
2014 / 2011 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides
#194678 - 06/15/10 09:25 PM Re: Damp Location [Re: harold endean]
Jim M Offline
Member

Registered: 08/10/01
Posts: 453
Loc: Chestertown, MD, USA
I am still trying to get a handle on what would be considered a damp location with this change. Does this mean I can no longer run NM thru the floor joists above a crawlspace?

As far as the cabnet being a damp area I don't see it that way. If it were damp i think the source of the leak needs to be found.

Top
#194679 - 06/15/10 09:25 PM Re: Damp Location [Re: harold endean]
Jim M Offline
Member

Registered: 08/10/01
Posts: 453
Loc: Chestertown, MD, USA
I am still trying to get a handle on what would be considered a damp location with this change. Does this mean I can no longer run NM thru the floor joists above a crawlspace?

As far as the cabnet being a damp area I don't see it that way. If it were damp i think the source of the leak needs to be found.

Top
#194680 - 06/15/10 09:25 PM Re: Damp Location [Re: harold endean]
leland Offline
Member

Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 856
Loc: Lowell area, Ma. USA
1) No way. The area is completely protected from the elements.

2) If you get that much water under a sink..... You need a plumber.

In fairness for #2- Is this a commercial or residential setting? Is it an open vanity or enclosed in a cabinet?

Top
#194682 - 06/15/10 09:32 PM Re: Damp Location [Re: leland]
harold endean Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/02
Posts: 2248
Loc: Boonton, NJ
Jim,

I can see a crawl space with no floor as being a "damp" location. As for a crawl space that has a concrete floor would that be considered "Damp"?

Top
#194683 - 06/15/10 09:35 PM Re: Damp Location [Re: harold endean]
harold endean Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/02
Posts: 2248
Loc: Boonton, NJ
Leland,

I agree with you, if under the sink is "Damp" then a plumber is needed! smile The cabinet in question was a normal kitchen household sink closed cabinet. The EC who asked me about "Damp" locations tells me today that he was failed on a job, because the Dishwasher recpt. needed to be GFI because the AHJ considered it a damp location.

Go figure that one out!

Top
#194685 - 06/15/10 09:46 PM Re: Damp Location [Re: harold endean]
leland Offline
Member

Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 856
Loc: Lowell area, Ma. USA
Originally Posted By: harold endean
Leland,

I agree with you, if under the sink is "Damp" then a plumber is needed! smile The cabinet in question was a normal kitchen household sink closed cabinet. The EC who asked me about "Damp" locations tells me today that he was failed on a job, because the Dishwasher recpt. needed to be GFI because the AHJ considered it a damp location.

Go figure that one out!


No need to.

Ask for the art.# with substantiation/definition.

for a $13 item,typically I won't tussle, But add them up. Now you are talking principal and overhead.

I'm sure you know the type: 'I'll push- and when I get resistance- (knowledgeable)- I know what I'm dealing with.'

Kind of an inspectors way of finding who they have to watch,and not.

Years ago, I used to cave, Then when I grew confident and knew how to read...

Those folks aren't so scary. wink

Top
#194687 - 06/15/10 09:59 PM Re: Damp Location [Re: harold endean]
gfretwell Offline

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9045
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
If your crawl space or basement is that "damp" I would be more concerned about black mold than damage to the RX.

If this is a commercial kitchen I would seriously consider it "wet".
I never thought about it until my wife started running a country club with 2 kitchens. They hose that place down every night with steaming hot water. All the appliances and work tables are on wheels so they can pull them out and hose behind them.
That is the thinking behind the universal requirement for GFCIs in kitchens I suppose.
If I was designing one from scratch I would use waterproof plugs like Russell Stoll or IEC309 hanging on SO cord.
_________________________
Greg Fretwell

Top
#194706 - 06/16/10 12:58 PM Re: Damp Location [Re: gfretwell]
mikesh Offline
Member

Registered: 06/07/06
Posts: 614
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
Damp is where condensation is likely to form. No place inside of a residential structure should be damp except maybe areas associated with swimming pools or steam rooms.
If the crawl space is damp I would recommend added ventilation and or a heater set high enough to prevent condensation and mold.
The area under a kitchen counter is dry except under abnormal conditions. Abnormal conditions require a plumbing or appliance repair and is not what you wire for.
The commercial kitchen described is a wet location if it gets washed down.

Top
#194712 - 06/16/10 03:38 PM Re: Damp Location [Re: mikesh]
KJay Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/07
Posts: 763
Loc: MA, USA
Around here, we have used NM cable exposed in unfinished resi garages, crawl spaces and basements for many decades with no raft of life threatening incidents, so I donít know why it has turned into such a big deal over nothing for the NEC, at least for the last couple of code cycles anyway.

As far as the GFCI under the sink for the receptacle for a dishwasher, in residential, if thatís a damp location, then Iím Brad Pitt. smile

Top
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 >



ECN Electrical Forums - sponsored by Electrical Contractor Network - Electrical and Code Related Discussion for Electrical Contractors, Electricians, Inspectors, Instructors, Engineers and other related Professionals