The Electrical Contractor Network

ECN Electrical Forum
Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals

Books, Tools and Test Equipment for Electrical and Construction Trades

Register Now!

Register Now!

We want your input!

Featured:
   

2017 NEC and Related
2017 NEC
Now Available!

   
Recent Posts
230 or 345 kV transmission lines?
by Vlado
09/24/16 09:33 AM
breaker meltdown
by crselectric
09/24/16 12:42 AM
Electrical mast flashing product
by ThomasWinfrey
09/22/16 12:14 AM
What estimating software do you recommend?
by sparky
09/21/16 07:20 PM
"Dry Run" Inspection goes awry
by HotLine1
09/20/16 07:39 PM
New in the Gallery:
12.5A through 0.75mm≤ flex (just out of curiosity)
Shout Box

Top Posters (30 Days)
HotLine1 15
sparky 9
gfretwell 8
sparky66wv 8
Vlado 6
Who's Online
0 registered (), 153 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#192784 - 03/03/10 05:53 AM Another question about AFCI's
harold endean Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/02
Posts: 2248
Loc: Boonton, NJ
If you have electric baseboard heat in a bedroom, does it need AFCI protection? How about if that electric heat was in a kitchen? Basement? Garage?

Top
2014 / 2011 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides
#192789 - 03/03/10 11:06 AM Re: Another question about AFCI's [Re: harold endean]
gfretwell Offline

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9012
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
Only if it is 120v 15 or 20a and this is not limited to bedrooms. (NEC, I am not sure what New Jersey says)
As I read it you would not need AFCIs in basements and garages unless they were converted to one of the uses in 210.12(B). I guess the open question is what is the trigger that changes a basement (or garage) to a recreation room? We had the same issue, going the other way with GFCIs for all of the 120v 15/20 receptacles. In any case you would need one or the other.
_________________________
Greg Fretwell

Top
#192798 - 03/03/10 02:32 PM Re: Another question about AFCI's [Re: gfretwell]
KJay Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/07
Posts: 763
Loc: MA, USA
In keeping with questionable application of AFCI requirements, another dwelling unit AFCI problem you will no doubt be dealing with is wet bar locations in finished basement recreation/game rooms.
Without permanently installed cooking facilities, these areas donít meet the criteria of a kitchen based on the definition in Art.100 stating, "an area with a sink and permanent facilities for food preparation and cooking', so all 15A and 20A 120V branch circuits, including any serving the counter top receptacle outlets, are required to have AFCI protection in addition to GFCI protection for all receptacle outlets within 6-Ft of the edge of the sink. The lighting branch circuit would also be required to have AFCI protection.

Cutting lime wedges and blending margaritas might not count as food prep, but a permanently installed, cabinet mounted microwave oven for melting the cheese on your nachos may be able to qualify as cooking equipment.
I do recall some controversy in the past over whether a microwave oven, permanently installed or not, was considered cooking equipment though, so I guess it could possibly be up for discussion.

If this area were classified as a kitchen, then no worries, but otherwise, the issue I have with this requirement is that AFCI's will nuisance trip frequently when certain motor operated cord and plug connected small appliances are plugged in to these counter top receptacle outlets.

Another issue is if I also have a sump pump for this wet bar sink installed below, if it's not considered a kitchen, then AFCI protection would be required for the branch circuit serving this 120V receptacle in addition to GFCI protection if located within 6-Ft of the sink, measured in any direction. An AFCI nuisance trip with a sump full of gray water is a bad situation.
The '08 NEC... it's the gift that keeps on giving! turkey

Top
#192807 - 03/03/10 05:02 PM Re: Another question about AFCI's [Re: KJay]
HotLine1 Offline

Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6785
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
Greg:
As far as I know as of right now, we here in NJ are 'to the book' with 2008 NEC 210.12

The havoc is with renovation & additions, not so much with any new resi, which is still really quiet in my town.

Harold has been coming up with some really good questions.

The BB heat is hard wired and 220/240 volt, in most instances that I have seen. That would be exempt. The renovations here fall under our 'Rehab' Subcode, and as of NOW are exempt. The wet bar scenario KJay is kicking around is open for discussion and I'm sure one will rear up very soon here.

To be continued?
_________________________
John

Top
#192811 - 03/03/10 10:21 PM Re: Another question about AFCI's [Re: HotLine1]
KJay Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/07
Posts: 763
Loc: MA, USA
I should have mentioned that in the dwelling unit wet bar scenario above, if the area doesn't qualify as a kitchen and you have a refrigerator, cooler or kegerator, the branch circuits supplying these would also be required to have AFCI protection.
I believe that based on the definition of an outlet in Art. 100, this requirement could also apply to 120V branch circuits supplying a glass washer or compact dishwasher in this area as well.

Top
#192816 - 03/04/10 10:58 AM Re: Another question about AFCI's [Re: KJay]
gfretwell Offline

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9012
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
I haven't looked but I bet Mike Holt has one of his handy dandy charts of where you need AFCI, GFCI or both.
It is not an official interpretation but he usually tries to be right.
_________________________
Greg Fretwell

Top
#192827 - 03/05/10 07:03 AM Re: Another question about AFCI's [Re: gfretwell]
harold endean Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/02
Posts: 2248
Loc: Boonton, NJ
Greg,

I guess I should have said 120 volt only when I mentioned the baseboard heat.


John,

I have the EC's asking me some of these questions and sometimes I am not sure how to answer them. I also tell them that this is my interpretation only. You have to ask the AHJ in the town where you are doing the work. See if they have the same opinion.

Top
#192835 - 03/05/10 12:14 PM Re: Another question about AFCI's [Re: harold endean]
gfretwell Offline

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9012
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
Harold, If this is 15 or 20 amp it is a slam dunk, it must be AFCI, just like the smoke detector. If it is 120v @ 30amp, no.
_________________________
Greg Fretwell

Top
#192848 - 03/06/10 11:59 AM Re: Another question about AFCI's [Re: gfretwell]
HotLine1 Offline

Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6785
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
I have printed (from 2008 Handbook) the entire AFCI requirements, and commentary. I have handed out numerous copies to EC's and Electricians since '08 is now mandatory.

My opinion is "what is says" within the above pages. The tough areas of "Yes or No" will come up soon! Some new resi is starting, as the weather & economy are starting to cooperate.

Harold:
Perhaps one of the powers that be in Trenton could compose a FTO so this issue could be "Uniform" statewide. I know thst's asking a lot, but I still believe in the tooth fairy!
_________________________
John

Top
#192875 - 03/08/10 10:09 AM Re: Another question about AFCI's [Re: HotLine1]
harold endean Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/02
Posts: 2248
Loc: Boonton, NJ
John,



Do you want to buy a bridge? I have one for sale!

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >



ECN Electrical Forums - sponsored by Electrical Contractor Network - Electrical and Code Related Discussion for Electrical Contractors, Electricians, Inspectors, Instructors, Engineers and other related Professionals