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#187672 - 07/06/09 09:37 PM 2 wire outlets to 3 wire
rj Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 23
Loc: Skidmore, Missouri, USA
I know that you can't change a two prong outlet to a three prong outlet with out adding a ground or by using a gfi outlet. I was wondering and have been looking at the codes can you use a GFI breaker and still use the 3 prong outlet without using a gfi outlet? I am getting ready to work in a very old two wire house. Any help or ideas would be great. Thanks

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#187673 - 07/06/09 11:25 PM Re: 2 wire outlets to 3 wire [Re: rj]
gfretwell Offline

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9012
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
Yes that meets the definition of the GFCI referenced below.

Quote:
406.3(D)(3)(c) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s) where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter. Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the ground-fault circuit interrupter shall be marked “GFCI Protected” and “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected between the grounding-type receptacles.
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#187678 - 07/07/09 04:11 AM Re: 2 wire outlets to 3 wire [Re: rj]
Trumpy Offline

Member

Registered: 07/05/02
Posts: 8530
Loc: SI,New Zealand
Guys,
Im not looking to start a flame war here or to dis-repect the OP(rj), but at times, things like this really get up my nose.

Simple electrical theory these days dictates that for a circuit to work correctly and safely it needs 3 wires, a Hot, a Neutral and a Ground wire (from a panel).

Now as an Electrician, I also realise that there are jobs where things are so bloody difficult (without committing a heap of violations) the job would never get done (or it would and it would be unsafe).

Wether by building construction or by other such things, it isn't possible to pull in new wires (believe me I've seen this a LOT of times).

I think it really comes down to how "in-accessible" wiring actually is and wether the electrician on the job just took the softer option.
We have the RCD over here and it is pretty much the same as a GFCI, but it trips at 30mA.
I've lost count of the times I've heard guys say "Let's just throw an RCD on it!" and to a degree it really annoys the hell out of me.

Having GFCI/RCD protection is one thing, but once it is installed, you are also asking the Home-owner to make sure these devices are tested every month.

Umm, yeah OK "where did they install that?"

If it is needed, the last thing you need is a non-trip due to a frozen mechanism, this has happened before and will again, it has killed people.
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Let's face it, these days if you're not young, you're old - Red Green grin

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#187680 - 07/07/09 06:17 AM Re: 2 wire outlets to 3 wire [Re: Trumpy]
HotLine1 Offline

Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6786
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
Mike:
I agree with you, that sometimes 'shortcuts' are taken by some people, be they 'hacks', or pro's that may look for an 'easy way out'.

Renovation work is tough, no doubt about it, and rewire without damage to finish is an art. There are sparkies that specialize in renov work, and they do remarkable things. There are new construction sparkies that are 'lost' once the 'rock goes on.

As Greg posted, yes, the GF breaker will satisfy code, and provide a measure of safety.....it's up to the end user to perform the mfg required (suggested) testing in a timely fashion.
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#187681 - 07/07/09 11:05 AM Re: 2 wire outlets to 3 wire [Re: HotLine1]
gfretwell Offline

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9012
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
I think the main reason people install grounded outlets is money (they don't make a cheap 2 prong receptacle)and the illusion that it is modern wiring, since about 95% of the things we plug in have 2 prong plugs. With the rise in popularity of double insulated power tools that is only increasing.
If the appliance is not grounded, all we are protecting is the wiring method. The GFCI does an excellent job of that. I still believe most of the protection (and nuisance tripping) of an AFCI circuit comes from the ground fault protection.
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Greg Fretwell

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#187691 - 07/07/09 01:06 PM Re: 2 wire outlets to 3 wire [Re: gfretwell]
KJay Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/07
Posts: 763
Loc: MA, USA
This thread got wondering... do the currently available GFCI circuit breakers also have the fail-safe circuitry required in GFCI receptacles. Meaning if there is an internal malfunction, will the breaker cease to allow output. Seems logical that they would, but I have never really looked into this.

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#187719 - 07/07/09 10:18 PM Re: 2 wire outlets to 3 wire [Re: KJay]
frenchelectrican Offline

Member

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 938
Loc: Wi/ Paris France { France for ...
Originally Posted By: KJay
This thread got wondering... do the currently available GFCI circuit breakers also have the fail-safe circuitry required in GFCI receptacles. Meaning if there is an internal malfunction, will the breaker cease to allow output. Seems logical that they would, but I have never really looked into this.


KJay.,

If my memory serve me right yes that is correct the most modern breaker will have that feature if malfuction it will lock out however I can not garnatee the answer due there are few diffrent manufacter have diffrent default or lockout mode for the breaker GFCI { RCD } devices

I think if my mind is working right the SqD and CH and Seamans are start useing current design simauir to the GFCI { RCD } receptale device but no comment with aftermarket items.

Merci,Marc
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Pas de problme,il marche n'est-ce pas?"(No problem, it works doesn't it?)


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#187724 - 07/07/09 10:53 PM Re: 2 wire outlets to 3 wire [Re: frenchelectrican]
gfretwell Offline

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9012
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
ANSI/UL 943 applies to all type A GFCIs as far as I can tell. I am not willing to actually buy the standard to see for sure.

This is another case of people making copyrighted material laws but not publishing the text. Maybe another law suit is in order.
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Greg Fretwell

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