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#187502 - 06/29/09 09:01 AM Here Comes 2011!
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 5299
Loc: Blue Collar Country
I just noticed out "tamper resistant receptacles" thread has gone on for 13 pages. I'm not sure if that's a record, but it certainly is exceptional.

Many of the comments digress, and refer to other parts of the 2008 edition which the poster finds problematic.

Well, here's a "heads up!" The 2011 "Report on Proposals" ought to be out any moment. This, in turn, means we get to comment on the sundry proposals that have been made.

All I can say is: get it. Read it. Comment. Raise Cain if need be.

After all, many of the objectionable parts of the 08 snuck by without comment, or discussion, in any of the internet forums. The requirement for tamper resistant receptacles was one such 'stealth' change.

Do comments matter? I have to say 'yes.' For the 08 code, I made a proposal. One could almost hear the snorts and giggles as the committee quickly rejected it. Comments made led to a complete reversal of the rejection. I was most surprised to find a page in the "Analysis of Changes" book that not only adopted my proposal, but repeated my reasoning almost word for word. (And I did not make any comments - someone else persuaded the committee to reconsider).

If anyone has a direct link, post it here.

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2014 / 2011 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides
#187508 - 06/29/09 10:00 AM Re: Here Comes 2011! [Re: renosteinke]
gfretwell Online   content

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9012
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
_________________________
Greg Fretwell

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#187899 - 07/13/09 07:03 PM Re: Here Comes 2011! [Re: gfretwell]
ChicoC10 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/30/07
Posts: 169
Loc: CA
What would it take to for us to bring about Greg's dream of a 5 or 10 year code cycle?
Could we do it or is the bureaucracy too strong?

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#187919 - 07/14/09 08:00 AM Re: Here Comes 2011! [Re: ChicoC10]
ghost307 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 876
Loc: Chicago Illinois USA
If there's an electrical danger or a better way to skin a cat, I don't want to wait 10 years to see it added to the Code.

Besides, as things change between the points of the proposed 10 year Code cycle, each jurisdiction will start adding their own little twists at shorter (Chicago used to do bi-monthly) time intervals until nobody has a CLUE what to do outside their own little town.
At least with a shorter Code cycle, there's a chance that there can be some uniformity.

Besides, one of the factors that influence insurance premiums in a town is how many Code cycles they are behind the current one. Lagging more than 2 cycles will hit the citizens of that town HARD for their insurance premiums. I can see the insurance folks requiring that each town immediately adopt the latest Code if the cycle is increased from the present 3 years.
_________________________
Ghost307

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#187922 - 07/14/09 09:19 AM Re: Here Comes 2011! [Re: ghost307]
gfretwell Online   content

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9012
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
What kind of "electrical danger" would suddenly appear?
At a certain point we have to admit we have been skinning these cats for over 100 years and the accepted method works pretty well.
If a new product comes along, sell it to us, don't force us to use it at the point of a government gun. After it has been thoroughly tested and proven it's worth, put it into the code. Then we might not have the current situation of 3 generations of AFCIs in the field, millions of the older styles, an unknown quantity of defective, recalled units that were never replaced with only the rarest newer ones meeting the current code. Bear in mind, the oldest generation AFCIs were being installed during the housing boom and the new ones finally hit the field about the time we stopped building houses.
_________________________
Greg Fretwell

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#187923 - 07/14/09 09:25 AM Re: Here Comes 2011! [Re: gfretwell]
gfretwell Online   content

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9012
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
From our friend Bryan Holland (BHGravity)

Following is a few of the more significant proposed changes that have been approved by the Code Making Panels.

Happy Reading…

Rule 1 – Available Fault Current
110.24 Available Fault Current [ROP 1-183].
(A) Field Marking. Service equipment in other than dwelling units shall be legibly marked in the field with the available fault current. The field marking(s) shall include the installation date and be of sufficient durability to withstand the environment involved. [ROP 1-183]

(B) Modifications. When modifications to the electrical installation occur that affect the available fault current at the service, the available fault current shall be verified or recalculated as necessary to ensure the service equipment interrupting ratings are sufficient for the available fault current at the line terminals of the equipment. The required field marking(s) in (A) above shall be adjusted to reflect the new level of available fault current. [ROP 1-183]

Exception: The field marking requirements in (A) and (B) shall not be required in industrial installations where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the equipment. [ROP 1-183]

Rule 2 – GFCI Protection
210.8 GFCI Protection
(B) Other Than Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1) through (5) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel. The ground-fault circuit-interrupter shall be installed in a readily accessible location. [ROP 2-77]
(7) Locker rooms with adjacent showering facilities [ROP2-110]
(8) Garages, service bays, and similar areas [ROP 2-122]

Rule 3 – Available Fault Current
240.35 Marking with Available Short-Circuit Current. Equipment enclosures, in other than dwelling occupancies, containing service or feeder circuit overcurrent protective devices, shall be field marked with a label containing the following:
(1) The available short-circuit current as calculated for equipment rating purposes
(2) The date on which the short-circuit calculation was performed or obtained. [ROP 10-72]

Exception: In installations with written safety procedures, where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the equipment, marking on the enclosure is not required if documentation of 240.35 (1) and (2) is available upon request to the authority having jurisdiction. [ROP 10-72]

Rule 4 – Supporting Wiring Methods
300.11 Securing and Supporting.
(A) Secured in Place. Raceways, cable assemblies, boxes, cabinets, and fittings shall be securely fastened in place. Support wires that do not provide secure support shall not be permitted as the sole support. Support wires and associated fittings that provide secure support and that are installed in addition to the ceiling grid support wires shall be permitted as the sole support. Where independent support wires are used, they shall be secured at both ends. Cables and raceways shall not be supported by ceiling grids.
(2) Non–Fire-Rated Assemblies. Wiring located within the cavity of a non–fire-rated floor–ceiling or roof–ceiling assembly shall not be secured to, or supported by, the ceiling assembly, including the ceiling support wires. An independent means of secure support shall be provided and shall be permitted to be attached to the assembly. Where independent support wires are used, they shall be distinguishable by color, tagging, or other effective means. [ROP 3-73]

Rule 5 – Conductor Sizing for Dwelling Units
310.15 Ampacities for Conductors Rated 0–2000 Volts.
(B) Tables. Ampacities for conductors rated 0 to 2000 volts shall be as specified in the Allowable Ampacity Table 310.15(B)(16) as modified by (B)(1) through (B)(7). [ROP 6-52]
(7) 120/240-Volt, Single-Phase Dwelling Services and Feeders [ROP 6-53].
(a) For individual dwelling units of one-family, two-family, and multifamily dwellings, conductors, as listed in Table 310.15(B)(7), shall be permitted as 120/240-volt, single-phase service-entrance conductors and service lateral conductors. [ROP 6-53]
(b) Feeder conductors for a dwelling unit, after adjustments and corrections, shall not be required to have an ampacity rating greater than the Table 310.15(B)(16) allowable ampacity of the service conductors. [ROP 6-83a, 6-85]

Rule 6 – Switches
404.2 Switch Connections.
(C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads. Where switches control lighting loads supplied by a grounded general purpose branch circuit, a grounded circuit conductor shall be provided at the switch location. [ROP 9-95]

Exception: The grounded circuit conductor shall be permitted to be omitted from the switch enclosure where either of the conditions in (1) or (2) apply: [ROP 9-95]
(1) Conductors for switches controlling lighting loads enter the device box through a raceway. [ROP 9-95]
(2) Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting enter the box through a framing cavity that is open at the top or bottom on the same floor level, or through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on one side. [ROP 9-95]

Rule 7 – Replacement of Receptacles
406.4 General Installation Requirements.
(D) Replacements. Replacement of receptacles shall comply with 406.4(D)(1) through (D)(6) as applicable. [ROP 18-24]
(4) Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupters. Listed combination arc-fault circuit-interrupter receptacles shall be provided where replacements are made at receptacle outlets that are required to be so protected elsewhere in this code. [ROP 18-30]

Exception to (4): Unless the receptacle is protected by an upstream AFCI. [ROP 18-30]

(5) Tamper-Resistant Receptacles. Listed tamper resistant receptacles shall be provided where replacements are made at receptacle outlets that are required to be tamper-resistant elsewhere in this Code.[ROP 18-24]

(6) Weather-Resistant Receptacles. Weather-resistant receptacles shall be provided where replacements are made at receptacle outlets that are required to be so protected elsewhere in the Code. [ROP 18-33]

Rule 8 – Tamper-Resistant Receptacles
406.13 Tamper-Resistant Receptacles in Guest Rooms and Guest Suites. All nonlocking type, 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles shall be listed tamper-resistant receptacles. [ROP 18-87]

Rule 9 – Tamper-Resistant Receptacles
406.14 Tamper-Resistant Receptacles Child Care Facilities. In all child care facilities, all nonlocking type, 125- volt, 15- and 20- ampere receptacles shall be listed tamper-resistant receptacles. [ROP 18-90]

Rule 10 – GFCI Protection
445.20 Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupter Protection for Receptacles on 15 kW or Smaller, Portable Generators.
All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- 20-, and 30-ampere receptacle outlets, that are a part of a 15 kW or smaller, portable generator, shall have ground-fault circuit interrupter protection for personnel integral to the generator or receptacle. [ROP 13-19]

Rule 11 – Transformer Disconnect
450.14 Disconnecting Means. Transformers, other than Class 2 or Class 3, shall have a disconnecting means located either in sight of the transformer or in a remote location. Where located in a remote location, the disconnecting shall be lockable, and the location shall be field marked on the transformer. [ROP 9-176]

Rule 12 – GFCI Protection
590.6 Ground-Fault Protection for Personnel.
(A) Receptacle Outlets. Temporary receptacle installations used to supply temporary power to equipment used by personnel during construction, remodeling, maintenance, repair, or demolition of buildings, structures, equipment, or similar activities shall comply with the requirements in 590.6(A)(1) through 590.6(A)(3), as applicable. [ROP3-140]
(3) Receptacles on 15 kW or less Portable Generators. All 125-volt and 125/250-volt, single-phase, 15-, 20-, and 30-ampere receptacle outlets that are a part of a 15 kW or smaller portable generator shall have listed ground-fault circuit interrupter protection for personnel. Listed cord sets or devices incorporating listed ground-fault circuit interrupter protection for personnel identified for portable use shall be permitted for use with 15kW or less portable generators manufactured or remanufactured prior to January 1, 2011. [ROP 3-140]

Rule 13 – Pool Bonding
680.26 Equipotential Bonding.
(B) Bonded Parts. The parts specified in 680.26(B)(1) through (B)(7) shall be bonded together using solid copper conductors, insulated covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG or with rigid metal conduit of brass or other identified corrosion-resistant metal. Connections to bonded parts shall be made in accordance with 250.8. An 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding conductor provided to reduce voltage gradients in the pool area shall not be required to be extended or attached to remote panelboards, service equipment, or electrodes.
(7) Fixed Metal Parts. All fixed metal parts shall be bonded, including but not limited to, metal sheathed cables and raceways, metal piping, metal awnings, metal fences, and metal door and window frames. [ROP 17-184]

Bryan P. Holland
City of North Port
_________________________
Greg Fretwell

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#188138 - 07/22/09 06:35 PM Re: Here Comes 2011! [Re: gfretwell]
kale Offline
Member

Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 168
Quote:
Rule 6 – Switches
404.2 Switch Connections.
(C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads. Where switches control lighting loads supplied by a grounded general purpose branch circuit, a grounded circuit conductor shall be provided at the switch location. [ROP 9-95]


How does this make things safer?

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#188143 - 07/22/09 08:13 PM Re: Here Comes 2011! [Re: kale]
gfretwell Online   content

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9012
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
I read the ROP on that one. It has to do with devices that need a neutral and are currently allowed to use the EGC for currents below around a half a MA.
Young suggested they simply ban that idea but he was voted down 11-1.
_________________________
Greg Fretwell

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#188194 - 07/24/09 12:09 PM Re: Here Comes 2011! [Re: gfretwell]
ghost307 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 876
Loc: Chicago Illinois USA
Does everybody like the NEC becoming a design manual??

Check out 2-276. The CPM has accepted a proposal to require a floor box in the center of every meeting room.
Although I have no issue with the box, it's MANDATING the box that is waaay outside the scope of the NEC.

I've seen lots of floors that couldn't be cut for a box or even had one poured in place. And there are also those rooms where the table has a center pedestal right where the box would be. And let's not forget those conference tables that are already hard-wired. If the designers want a floor box, they can call for one. Don't make me put one in just because someone may one day want to plug something in.
_________________________
Ghost307

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#188675 - 08/24/09 06:35 AM Re: Here Comes 2011! [Re: ghost307]
harold endean Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/02
Posts: 2248
Loc: Boonton, NJ
Greg,


I feel like you do that the 3 year code cycle is just a little too fast. For example in my state, by the time the new code comes out, the state has time to review it, then pass legislation in order to make it law. 1 to 2 tears go by. Then by the time we adopted the new code, then next one is already out. NJ is just turning to the '08 code in Oct. this year. I haven't had much time using the new code, so I am not sure what I like or dislike about it. (Other than TR recept. and arc fault breakers). Like mentioned in this post, since when has the NEC become a design manual? Let the architects and engineers design the spaces and we will wire to there specs. Too many manufactures sit on the code making panel, (IMHO) and ( Let me think here a second) Maybe, just maybe, they are just trying to sell more of their stuff! smile NJ uses the NEC but maybe we should switch to the IEC? I am not sure because I don't have a copy of that one, yet.

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