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#181025 - 09/19/08 07:14 AM Kitchen installers from hell?
djk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 1269
Loc: Ireland
I just spotted this thread on a UK DIY Forum

http://www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1005448#1005448

Terrifying! This was a professional kitchen installation apparently.

They've even plugged the dishwasher, oven and something else into a power strip. Cut a ring main and repaired it with a chock block just shoved into a hole in the plaster.

I honestly have never seen worse!



Edited by djk (09/19/08 07:15 AM)

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#181036 - 09/19/08 07:06 PM Re: Kitchen installers from hell? [Re: djk]
Trumpy Offline

Member

Registered: 07/05/02
Posts: 8540
Loc: SI,New Zealand
Dave,
That's just plain bloody rough!
It is a fire waiting to happen.
In what sort of a bizzaro world, do you use a multi-box as permanent wiring?
Especially one that feeds circuits like a cook-top, that need a 2.5mm2 feed from a CB, they draw more than 13A.
If I was the guy, I would complain to the authorities, this doesn't comply at all, even the building work is pretty shonky, but the electrical work is a source of real worry.
_________________________
Let's face it, these days if you're not young, you're old - Red Green grin

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#181047 - 09/20/08 11:02 AM Re: Kitchen installers from hell? [Re: Trumpy]
djk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 1269
Loc: Ireland
The homeowner really should sue the company who sent that idiot out to 'install' the kitchen. It's an absolute joke, I seriously have never seen anything that bad.

There's sloppy and there's utterly ridiculous. I mean, where do you even start ?!

Ring circuit 'repair' job: http://img375.imageshack.us/my.php?image=electricwn6.jpg



Connection to dishwasher, hob and oven :

http://img172.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ovenconectionintoextensde2.jpg

Plug built-in to electrical outlet!
http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=singlesocketforextensiopu9.jpg

Gas pipe with handy ignition source:

http://img172.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ovenconectionintoextensde2.jpg

End result :

http://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kitchen1ty4.jpg

The guy paid £7000 (or €8800)
That's US$12800




Edited by djk (09/20/08 11:08 AM)

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#181053 - 09/20/08 04:00 PM Re: Kitchen installers from hell? [Re: Trumpy]
adamh Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/07
Posts: 13
Loc: UK
 Originally Posted By: Trumpy

Especially one that feeds circuits like a cook-top, that need a 2.5mm2 feed from a CB, they draw more than 13A.


It's gas and only uses electricity for ignition, so uses very little power. The oven and dishwasher are likely to draw around 10A each though.

Usual practice over here is to run a 30A circuit for the cooker (range) with double pole isolation above counter level. It's quite likely that such a circuit is still in the kitchen somewhere! In this situation, I'd have taken the cable from the isolator switch to a pair of outlets under the counter.

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#181058 - 09/20/08 06:47 PM Re: Kitchen installers from hell? [Re: adamh]
Trumpy Offline

Member

Registered: 07/05/02
Posts: 8540
Loc: SI,New Zealand
 Originally Posted By: adamh


It's gas and only uses electricity for ignition, so uses very little power. The oven and dishwasher are likely to draw around 10A each though.


So, basically, the multi-box is going to cycle on it's overload, they could have at least made the thing accessible.

Or they could have got a REAL electrician, but I guess that would have been too expensive.
If you continue to have an installation like this in your house you will more than likely void your House insurance.
This is just rediculous, never before have I seen an exposed "choc-block" used in such a dodgy way, hasn't this clown heard of a junction box?
_________________________
Let's face it, these days if you're not young, you're old - Red Green grin

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#181061 - 09/21/08 02:20 AM Re: Kitchen installers from hell? [Re: Trumpy]
adamh Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/07
Posts: 13
Loc: UK
 Originally Posted By: Trumpy

So, basically, the multi-box is going to cycle on it's overload, they could have at least made the thing accessible.


It's better than that, there probably isn't an overload on it, it'll rely on the fuse in the plug. Assuming there is a 13a fuse in that inaccessible plug, it won't last too long if they try and use the oven and dishwasher together.

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#181062 - 09/21/08 05:54 AM Re: Kitchen installers from hell? [Re: adamh]
djk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 1269
Loc: Ireland
The gas cooker's ignitor supply should be connected to the power supply either via a switched fused appliance unit or via an appropriately fused, accessible plug and socket. In Ireland it would be on a 20amp socket circuit protected by an RCD too. In the UK, I would assume it would normally be on a socket circuit too. Although, I'm not sure.

The same would apply for the dishwasher. Depending on the model, it could draw up to 13amps.

The oven should be on a dedicated appropriately rated radial circuit controlled by a local double-pole isolating switch specified for the rating of the appliance. This should be located above the counter and in a safe location near the cooker.

This is what worries me about the level of regulation in the UK and in Ireland. While it's a legal obligation to carry out work to the regulations, there has been really no control over who can carry that work out.

I would be of the opinion that if someone poses an electrical contractor or carries out wiring on a paid-for (professional) basis the next person they should be seeing is a District Court judge. It should carry a heavy fine or even jail time. It's a lot more serious than not paying parking fines or TV licences!

I would also limit DIY work to modifying existing final circuits only. I feel that anything that involves installing new breakers / fuses on the distribution panel is beyond the scope of DIY work.

Ireland's electrical contractors have largely been self-regulated since the dawn of electricity in the 1800s. In the past, the state-owned monopoly power company, ESB had a regulatory role and set the wiring rules itself. This role was then moved over to the Electrotechnical Council of Ireland in the 1970s. However, ESB electrical engineers dominated that and continued to control the rule making.

We then moved towards self-certification of installations by contractors. The two trade bodies have operated a self-regulatory inspection process where by they do random inspections. The problem is that you don't have any legal compulsion to be a member of either of these bodies!!!!

There has now been a move towards regulation again and the CER, Commission for Energy Regulation was given statutory responsibility to regulate the activities of Irish electrical contractors back in 2007. It's been locked in consultations with various stakeholders since then and has now come up with a plan to discharge this new responsibility primarily through the designation of a body or bodies to act as a regulatory body for electrical contractors.

Basically, the two EC organisations will get legal status as regulatory bodies.

You can see all their reports : http://www.cer.ie/en/electricity-safety-reports-and-publications.aspx

Their 'decision documents' :
http://www.cer.ie/en/electricity-safety-...0a-0b390d1a2964

Frankly, I think the whole system's far too relaxed. At least it's a move towards regulation but, it's not far enough. I'd rather see state-employed inspectors like the old days when the ESB used to inspect installations.




Edited by djk (09/21/08 06:06 AM)

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#181064 - 09/21/08 07:14 AM Re: Kitchen installers from hell? [Re: djk]
pauluk Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/01
Posts: 7693
Loc: Norfolk, England
That's rough, although coming from kitchen fitters, not unexpected. They've acquired something of a reputation here in recent years for shoddy electrical work.

 Originally Posted By: djk
The gas cooker's ignitor supply should be connected to the power supply either via a switched fused appliance unit or via an appropriately fused, accessible plug and socket. In Ireland it would be on a 20amp socket circuit protected by an RCD too. In the UK, I would assume it would normally be on a socket circuit too. Although, I'm not sure.


Pretty much the same here, either hardwired to an FCU or powered via a regular BS1363 socket & plug -- In either case accessible. No RCD required though.

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#181077 - 09/22/08 03:12 AM Re: Kitchen installers from hell? [Re: pauluk]
Trumpy Offline

Member

Registered: 07/05/02
Posts: 8540
Loc: SI,New Zealand
 Originally Posted By: pauluk
That's rough, although coming from kitchen fitters, not unexpected. They've acquired something of a reputation here in recent years for shoddy electrical work.

And why is that I ask?, when EVERY other electrician is measured with Part P, sounds like a non-level playing field here.
Are authorities turning a blind-eye towards these clowns in favour of stifling business?
These people(I have worked in with kitchen fitters before) have the minimum of tools with them, they even ask to borrow yours as well.

They seem to think that as long as they have a saw, a hammer and a screwdriver, it qualifies them to do all sorts of damage that will be later covered up by their flash melamine-faced MDF cabinet work and a (rare) coat of plaster and paint.


 Originally Posted By: pauluk
Pretty much the same here, either hardwired to an FCU or powered via a regular BS1363 socket & plug -- In either case accessible. No RCD required though.

Paul,
I think in every area of the world that has up to date electricity regulations, you'd be violating at least a few of them regs, by hiding rubbish like this in the walls or behind somewhere that did not require "significant removal of building parts" to access the connections.

Imagine having to turn that off in a hurry?
Most people don't think of the switch-board, it becomes one big panic, they want a switch they can turn off near the appliance!
Is that too much to ask?
No, it isn't, that is why clowns like this need to be made an example of.

Are kitchen fires caused by this sort of work that prevalent in the UK and Ireland?

We went mad with RCD protection here, requiring all new domestic installations to have 30mA RCD protection on all lighting circuits and most of the socket-outlets in a house.
No way could you use any of the older type double socket-outlets that had an integral RCD, it all had to be at the switch-board, meaning the price of a switch-board panel blew out after the Regs changed, more so if you were unfortunate enough to have to wire a 3 phase 230V house, as they often are out in the country here.
At the end of the day, I don't think anyone is any safer, I think it is just the "warm-fuzzy" factor, given by people that have a minimal understanding of how electricity actually works.
If you are going to be electrocuted, often an RCD will not stop it, mainly because they aren't tested enough in the houses where they are installed, people forget they even own them.
_________________________
Let's face it, these days if you're not young, you're old - Red Green grin

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#181082 - 09/22/08 05:05 AM Re: Kitchen installers from hell? [Re: Trumpy]
djk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 1269
Loc: Ireland
For starters, if you carried out that kind of work in Ireland I can almost guarantee you you'd be sued.

The consequences of prosecution by regulatory authorities would pale into insignificance when you'd see the kind of damage a homeowner or their insurer would do to your business if you left them with a mess like that.

In general most kitchen installers I've come across here have a qualified electrician and a qualified plumber as part of the team. They float around dropping in and out as needed. Typically, they pay a visit after the existing kitchen has been stripped out and do all of the necessary electrical and plumbing work. The kitchen's fitted and the fittings are hooked up and wall plates put on etc.

A kitchen installer doing that kind of work here without a person who was legally competent to carry out such work would simply be signing their own bankruptcy paperwork. Basically, if the installation went on fire they would be fully liable for the direct and knock-on costs and the insurers do sue.

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