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#177671 - 05/09/08 10:09 AM A must read post !!
HCE727 Offline
Registered: 11/11/05
Posts: 190
Loc: Delaware County, PA, USA
A customer from a row home calls me and tells me that he received a good shock, while in the shower, as he was adjusting the shower head. He also tells me he smells something burning in the basement. I will just state the facts, to keep this as short as possible.
Facts: 1st day
60-volts from soil pipe to cold water pipe.
No-hub fittings on soil pipe are melting and stainless clamps are glowing.
Turn off all breakers, one at a time, still getting voltage.
Out back of property, test down spout, that is emptying into soil pipe, to cold water spigot get 120v with all breakers off.
Service is 100a cable, sleeved in non-grounded emt, 100-a cable is twisted and smashed, in a lb, going into the house.
Most house's on the block are brick, stucco, with a 2nd floor bay, that is AL siding, siding is in contact with the stucco wire and stucco, all windows and barge boards are capped in AL.
Conclusion: Service cable is in contact with stucco wire, traveling to siding? Going to replace service cable on 2nd day.
Facts: 2nd day
First thing,test down spout, no voltage.
Neighbor next door asks to check a breaker that has tripped, reset breaker.
Back to next door, disconnect one leg at taps,get 120v, disconnect other leg, still get 120v, disconnect neutral and no-hub fittings catch fire, re-connect neutral.
Fire dept. and PECO on there way!
Peco tests neutrals in both houses, everything is fine.
What could it be?

Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades
#177676 - 05/09/08 12:09 PM Re: A must read post !! [Re: HCE727]
gfretwell Offline

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9066
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
Did the problem go away after the PoCo said there was no problem on their side? It sure sounds like a neutral open and the pipe system doing all the work
Greg Fretwell
#177677 - 05/09/08 01:07 PM Re: A must read post !! [Re: HCE727]
EV607797 Offline
Registered: 10/25/06
Posts: 756
Loc: Fredericksburg, VA, USA
Henry, am I safe to assume that the services are overhead?

My next question is: Have any homes had new cable TV, satellite or Verizon FIOS service installed recently?


"But the guy at Home Depot said it would work."
#177691 - 05/09/08 06:23 PM Re: A must read post !! [Re: HCE727]
HCE727 Offline
Registered: 11/11/05
Posts: 190
Loc: Delaware County, PA, USA
Peco said that the neutrals were ok on their side, still getting 120v on down spout. I do not know of any new cable tv installs on the street. All services are overhead, one feed along the back of the houses. I have the answer, I was trying to see if anyone could guess what it was.
#177692 - 05/09/08 06:57 PM Re: A must read post !! [Re: HCE727]
dura101 Offline
Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 13
Loc: Canada
Well I guess it must have something to do with the tripped breaker at the neighbour's house. Easy fix, just tell the neighbour that they can never turn that breaker on ever again, lol. Just kidding.

You say that when their breaker was tripped you had no voltage. Then when you reset it you had voltage from the downspout to the cold water pipe.

Did the neighbour's hot from that circuit come into contact with the downspout or something else that is bonded to it? Nail or something?

#177696 - 05/10/08 03:27 AM Re: A must read post !! [Re: dura101]
jdo1942 Offline
Junior Member
Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 32
Loc: st. louis, mo. usa
I think what you have is a source that has a bad neutral connection and is using any available ground to provide a neutral reference, hence a large amount of unbalanced current coming thru the grounds to get to a neutal. The cast iron sewer pipe can provide a ground.

Joe Ogle
#177699 - 05/10/08 07:56 AM Re: A must read post !! [Re: jdo1942]
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: Blue Collar Country
I think that the one breaker seems to control the problem is a major hint. The problem almost has to be on that circuit.

Enough current to melt the no-hub connectors? I'm impressed. I suspect that neighbor has a few problems. Here are some ideas:
First, I'd find out what's on the circuit. Then, I'd see if the problem persisted with every appliance unplugged. This removes the appliances as the source of the problem. (I don't think they are, but let's stop guessing, and be systematic).
The next step is finding the place in the circuit where the hot contacts a pipe, the conduit, or whatever. A cheap megger is a good tool to use to check the wires.

You notice I am not thinking "neutral." Not, at least, if the problem persists without any appliances plugged in. Since you claimed to measure 120v at one point, I don't think that current is flowing through any load.

Once you find the short to ground, you've found half the problem. The other half? Grounding.
I suspect that the neighbor has a good water bond ... it might even be to the sewer line. I also suspect that your customer has a poor one. I doubt either house has a ground rod.

Keep this in mind: The only way the piping can become energized is if there is no path for the electricity to get back to the PoCo transformer.
#177706 - 05/10/08 10:53 AM Re: A must read post !! [Re: HCE727]
walrus Offline
Registered: 07/25/02
Posts: 671
Loc: Bangor Me. USA
I can't see how the SS clamps would glow?? Aren;t they insulated from the pipe by the rubber sleeve inside the no hub?? Maybe the rubber burned away?
#177713 - 05/10/08 02:22 PM Re: A must read post !! [Re: walrus]
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: Blue Collar Country
Walrus, from the OP's description, I was making the guess that there was arcing between the two pipes. Heck, since those connectors typically have a foil-like wrapper, the clamps and foil may be the primary current path.

Too bad most amp clamps aren't big enough to go around a sewer line!
#177717 - 05/10/08 03:14 PM Re: A must read post !! [Re: renosteinke]
Trumpy Offline

Registered: 07/05/02
Posts: 8560
Loc: SI,New Zealand
Just a little thought.
This sort of sounds a bit like the polarity of some wires somewhere in the service were back to front.
Let's face it, these days if you're not young, you're old - Red Green grin
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