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#175617 - 03/05/08 07:41 PM Could use some remod suggestions
Trick440 Offline

Registered: 08/15/05
Posts: 248
Loc: Waterford, MI, USA
I get to fix the work of an unlicensed contractor... sweet. This guy lives in downtown Detroit, on the 27th floor of a 28 story condo building. Looks like an upper class type of building, they even have a door guy that opens the door for you.

Why oh why would you hire an unlicensed guy for a complete renovation... beats me.

Anyways off to my questions. We have some EMT coming through the cement floor. I need to get these to the wall a few feet away. What do we think is the best way? I know I'm busting some concrete. J-box in the floor.... naw. I'm thinking I need to bust all the way down and completely re pull the wires from the source... where ever that is. Can I use one of them 90* elbows under concrete?

Now we have this ..uuh.. custom panel install. First we have 100Amps.. then only 10 space? Why....? 20 or 30 space would of been nice. Then lets see... Sideways? ..err, ok well the 3 lower breakers are code compliant (3 outta 12 breakers ain't too bad)

Ok back on point... Besides this panel being sideways and only the breakers with the 'On' in the up position being code compliant. Is that many tandem breakers legal? I looked on the panel and it didn't say how many circuits was allowed.

Those are my only questions... but heres a few random pics of this place.

Apperently there are atleast 2 buried j-boxes behind the drywall in the kitchen I have to find. Looks like the plan was to bury this one too.

Heres the back of that panel and the kitchen wall wiring.

Last pic, this guy has a nice view of Ford Field and the Detroit skyline.

Edited by Trick440 (03/05/08 07:52 PM)
Shake n Bake

2014 / 2011 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides
#175621 - 03/05/08 09:07 PM Re: Could use some remod suggestions [Re: Trick440]
sparkyinak Offline

Registered: 07/08/07
Posts: 1288
Loc: Alaska
Is this a bid job? Default it! \:\)

If I understand it right, you are asking if it is kosher to cut the floor and rotate the sweep flat? That would be dependent of the condition of the conduit and where the coupling is. I am not sure what your plans are but you may have to cut out the old and go in with new. being that it has been cut before the concrete may come out "easy". Are the walls concrete too? Can you go up and over once you rotate the panel?

You want to know why they hired an unlicensed contractor?Because they are cheaper. If they can afford a condo on the 27 floor even it is in Detroit, they got money. People with money are typically anal retentive with their money. That is why they got money. \:\)

Edited by sparkyinak (03/05/08 09:07 PM)
"Live Awesome!" - Kevin Carosa

#175631 - 03/06/08 05:44 AM Re: Could use some remod suggestions [Re: sparkyinak]
ghost307 Offline

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 881
Loc: Chicago Illinois USA
Upon seeing the back of that stub wall, I can't understand why someone felt the need to mount that load center horizontally. It's almost square.

I'm also none too happy with the supporting of that panel. It looks like the only thing holding it is a couple of cut metal studs and the drywall.

I'd rotate the load center so that all of the breakers are compliant, then chip out enough of the slab to get to the coupling in the floor and drop in a concrete-tight coupling to turn the conduit to the wall. Turning up out of the floor into that wall will still be tricky. Be aware that there may not be a coupling in that conduit run that you can start your run at. You might be seeing the bitter end of a 10' length that starts at the box and goes 'wherever'.

BTW, is that a low voltage cable that just dives into the concrete???

#175634 - 03/06/08 06:37 AM Re: Could use some remod suggestions [Re: ghost307]
Trick440 Offline

Registered: 08/15/05
Posts: 248
Loc: Waterford, MI, USA
"I'm also none too happy with the supporting of that panel. It looks like the only thing holding it is a couple of cut metal studs and the drywall."

It has the emt for support and if thats not good enough,.. drywall. -jk. \:\)

This cement it sounds like I need to bust it up far back enough and deep enough to cut the conduits and put in 90* bends, then take it over to the wall, and up.(or a concrete tight coupling)

The walls arent concrete, but the ceilings are. So abandoning these wires and feeding what needs to be fed isn't an option.

Yes, that is low volt, straight into concrete.

I do need to know if that many tandem breakers are acceptable?

Edited by Trick440 (03/06/08 06:42 AM)
Shake n Bake

#175636 - 03/06/08 07:44 AM Re: Could use some remod suggestions [Re: Trick440]
Alan Nadon Offline

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 398
Loc: Elkhart, IN. USA
Judging from the wiring diagram in the close up photo of the panel, it shows two OC at each of the bus positions that are not the MAIN. It is in my opinion a 10/20 panel, and as much as I hate tandem breakers it would be Code compliant.
Being mounted sideways does not comply.
I would recommend, not require, replacing it anyway, to get more wiring space, and to get away from the tandems that have such limited contact with the bus.
If it was easy, anyone could do it.

#175637 - 03/06/08 07:52 AM Re: Could use some remod suggestions [Re: Trick440]
EV607797 Offline

Registered: 10/25/06
Posts: 756
Loc: Fredericksburg, VA, USA
It was common practice for Bell companies to lay their cable directly into the slab in the 1960's. Be really careful when chipping out the concrete because that cable loops back out to other outlets in the apartment. If it's not long enough to reach the wall, which appears to be the case, you might want to consider some kind of floor box to contain the splice.

As for the horizontal panel, my guess is that he didn't think that it was wide enough to contain the existing conduits in the bottom. As for the question about tandem breakers, that's all up to the panel's manufacturer. The diagram should indicate which poles are rated for tandems and should have the CTL notching. From the diagram, it appears that all pole spaces are approved for tandem breakers.

Edited by EV607797 (03/06/08 07:57 AM)

"But the guy at Home Depot said it would work."

#175661 - 03/07/08 11:38 AM Re: Could use some remod suggestions [Re: EV607797]
Trick440 Offline

Registered: 08/15/05
Posts: 248
Loc: Waterford, MI, USA
Thanks for the thoughts on this. I'm thinking I'm going to bid moving them 2 boxes in the cement at 6hrs. I can't imagine it taking more than that to do the job.
Shake n Bake

#176076 - 03/19/08 04:07 PM Re: Could use some remod suggestions [Re: Trick440]
kohli Offline
New Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 9
Loc: Ohlo Putnam Co
I would only take this mess time & meterial Also i would a wery thoural Groundtng / Bonding check/repair . Rember the LAST guy there ownes All the past sins . also I would not pass up the pictuer takeing opperinity to cover all the unknowen things Kohli


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