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#175260 - 02/25/08 07:08 PM Commercial Kitchen GFI's
wiking Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 32
Loc: Florida, USA
I want to be 100% on this and one inspector told one way and another says different. He said that commercial kitchen meant the kitchen was in the food business and so I only had to GFI within 6' of the sink of the company break room.
Now a different inspector says commercial means also a company break room and I need a single recepticle with a GFI overide for the microwave and everything, including the refrig. has to be GFI.
The guy buying the material says he's not and to take it up with the inspector. Working against a due date, appreciate any insight or help in an exact accepted interpretation of commercial or industrial kitchen.

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#175263 - 02/25/08 08:14 PM Re: Commercial Kitchen GFI's [Re: wiking]
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: Blue Collar Country
I think the "what is a commercial kitchen" debate is a dishonest one, put forth by the same who try to say that the Constitution is a 'living' document, or want to debate the meaning of the word "is." One of the inspectors needs to grow up.

According to the 2008 NEC handbook - put out by the same folks who publish the NEC ... an employee breakroom is NOT a commercial kitchen.

The commentary is as follows:
"A location with a sink and a portable cooking appliance (e.g., cord-and-plug connected microwave oven) is not considered a commercial or institutional kitchen for the purposes of applying this requirement."
210.8 (B), pg 85.

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#175268 - 02/25/08 09:17 PM Re: Commercial Kitchen GFI's [Re: renosteinke]
frenchelectrican Offline

Member

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 938
Loc: Wi/ Paris France { France for ...
 Quote:
Commercial and institutional kitchens — for the purposes of this section, a
kitchen is an area with a sink and permanent facilities for food preparation and
cooking


this is from the 05 NEC code ( 210.8[B]2 )

just to highlight it.

Merci,Marc


Edited by frenchelectrican (02/25/08 09:22 PM)
Edit Reason: correct the NEC#'s
_________________________
Pas de problme,il marche n'est-ce pas?"(No problem, it works doesn't it?)


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#175275 - 02/26/08 02:03 AM Re: Commercial Kitchen GFI's [Re: renosteinke]
wiking Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 32
Loc: Florida, USA
Thanks for the input. In this situation, using the microwave for the example clouds the issue for me in going against the inspectors opinion that it is commercial because the microwave is mounted to hang underneath a cabinent so I supposed it might not be considered portable anymore.
It still doesn't match up to what I would consider a commercial kitchen, but it's hard to prove a point with an inspector who is firm in his opinion.
I think the confusion comes in for some in crossing the definition of Commercial Kitchen and Non-Dwelling unit.
From your reply, it sounds like you are in agreement, but every place I've gone to (about a half dozen) on a web search indicates that every recepticle should be GFI'd.

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#175283 - 02/26/08 04:47 AM Re: Commercial Kitchen GFI's [Re: renosteinke]
iwire Offline
Moderator

Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4343
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
 Originally Posted By: renosteinke
I think the "what is a commercial kitchen" debate is a dishonest one, put forth by the same who try to say that the Constitution is a 'living' document,


Can't you ever just answer the electrical question and leave your personal social views out of it?

 Originally Posted By: renosteinke
According to the 2008 NEC handbook - put out by the same folks who publish the NEC ... an employee breakroom is NOT a commercial kitchen.


The handbook is not the code regardless of who puts it out and an employee break room could be a kitchen if meets the definition that Marc posted.

_________________________
Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

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#175285 - 02/26/08 04:56 AM Re: Commercial Kitchen GFI's [Re: wiking]
BPHgravity Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/03
Posts: 141
Loc: Port Charlotte, Florida
Sometimes it's best to go back and review the ROP and ROC documents from the code cycle when the change took place.

The commercial kitchen gfci issue arose from documented deaths at restaurants and other similar facilities. Nowhere in the substantiation was there consideration for break rooms or office "kitchens".

However, the AHJ is always afforded the right to make their own interpretation which may result in a more conservative view than what was originally intended by the CMP.


A good axample would be Comment 2-14 Log #1545 of the 2001 ROC.
_________________________
Bryan P. Holland, ECO.
Secretary - IAEI Florida Chapter

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#175286 - 02/26/08 05:00 AM Re: Commercial Kitchen GFI's [Re: BPHgravity]
iwire Offline
Moderator

Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4343
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
 Originally Posted By: BPHgravity
Sometimes it's best to go back and review the ROP and ROC documents from the code cycle when the change took place.


Sure it is, but that does not change what is printed in the actual adopted standard.
_________________________
Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

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#175291 - 02/26/08 07:28 AM Re: Commercial Kitchen GFI's [Re: iwire]
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: Blue Collar Country
Sorry if you took my reply personally ... I have no way to know what lies in a mans' heart.

Yet, the "straw man" argument is a classic ... that is, setting up a condition that is easy to discredit, just so you can show your own prowess. A close relation would be the 'red herring,' making a completely irrelevant observation. Both are discussion techniques that seem to be favored by either the uninformed, or those just wishing to stir the pot.

Since the employee breakroom is not only clearly NOT a kitchen ... warming your coffee hardly qualifies as 'cooking,' and unwrapping your sandwich hardly qualifies as 'food preparation,' .... attempting the stretch the definition to cover breakrooms is clearly improper.

But that's just "my" opinion. Perhaps a better question is: What did the guy who wrote it really mean? That's where the commentary belongs. The NFPA is the 'author,' and the commentary is their explanation of what they meant. Not part of the code? Sure - but here that's pretty much a distinction without a difference.

Why? Well, let's carry this to the end ... a citation is issued, and a jury trial (guaranteed by the Constitution) takes place.
One side will say "Here are the words used" ... and we say the words mean "X"; and,
The other side will say "I wrote the words, and my meaning, my intent, was "Y".
Which way do you think the jury will vote? Whose argument will they buy?

Now, it's fair to ask why I consider this issue a non-starter. I do, because this issue has been quite prominent, in countless media, for nearly a decade. It's been re-iterated from the start that breakrooms were not commercial kitchens. An "inspector" who tries to assert that they are is either trying to substitute his opinion for that of the authors .... or is so uninformed as to bring his competence into question.



As I see it, the meanings of 'permanent' and 'cooking' are critical in understanding the code. This goes to the intended use of the space. A breakroom will typically not have anyone in it long enough to 'cook' anything. Even for a more elaborate company 'lunchroom' (one with an area where food is actually served), the 'kitchen' requirements would apply only to the cooking area, and not the entire room.

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#175292 - 02/26/08 07:28 AM Re: Commercial Kitchen GFI's [Re: iwire]
Alan Nadon Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 398
Loc: Elkhart, IN. USA
As an inspector I do not consider a break room with only a microwave oven a kitchen. The definition of a kitchen was relocated from 210.8(B) to Article 100 in the 2008 Code. The inspector should be familiar with the wording, and what is meant by permanent facilities for food preperation and cooking.

If anything the inspector should look at 210.8(B)(5) for any receptacles located within 6 feet of a sink.

If it isn't a kitchen and it isn't near a sink then no GFI.
_________________________
Alan--
If it was easy, anyone could do it.

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#175672 - 03/08/08 03:31 AM Re: Commercial Kitchen GFI's [Re: renosteinke]
iwire Offline
Moderator

Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4343
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
 Originally Posted By: renosteinke
Sorry if you took my reply personally ... I have no way to know what lies in a mans' heart.

Yet, the "straw man" argument is a classic ... that is, setting up a condition that is easy to discredit, just so you can show your own prowess. A close relation would be the 'red herring,' making a completely irrelevant observation. Both are discussion techniques that seem to be favored by either the uninformed, or those just wishing to stir the pot.


Can you try again as I have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about.

No forget it, lets STICK TO THE NEC in this NEC forum.

Have you seen this break room?

No, you have not and neither have I.

The answer is found in the NEC definition, some break rooms do meet the NEC definition of kitchen.

Certainly I agree that most basic employee break rooms are not kitchens. But some are, some do have permanent provisions for cooking. Broaden your horizons you have not seen every break room.

 Quote:
Since the employee break room is not only clearly NOT a kitchen


You are guessing and casting your opinion out like it is a fact.

Unless you have seen the room in question you can not say if it is, or if it is not a kitchen to the NEC.

Bob
_________________________
Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

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