The Electrical Contractor Network

ECN Electrical Forum
Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals

Books, Tools and Test Equipment for Electrical and Construction Trades

Register Now!

Register Now!

We want your input!


2017 NEC and Related
2017 NEC
Now Available!

Recent Posts
Safety at heights?
by gfretwell
Today at 02:19 AM
Looking for older post
by Trumpy
Today at 01:04 AM
Last time to chat here
by Trumpy
Yesterday at 11:41 PM
Unsafe Situations
by Trumpy
Yesterday at 09:46 PM
Webmaster > Admin
by Trumpy
Yesterday at 08:29 PM
New in the Gallery:
Desk-mounted "power-board"
Shout Box

Top Posters (30 Days)
Admin 35
HotLine1 20
Trumpy 19
Ruben Rocha 17
gfretwell 16
Who's Online
1 registered (Admin), 166 Guests and 15 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#17275 - 11/23/02 04:23 PM Equipment ground bar
Electricmanscott Offline

Registered: 01/12/02
Posts: 1478
Loc: Holden, MA USA
Helped out a fellow sparky today on a remodel job. Panel was full, added a few mini breakers. The neutral bar was also full so he installed another ground bar. He connected the egc's and neutrals to this bar. This is in a service panel where the main ground bar is bonded to the panel. He insists it's ok but I don't think so. I have never thought about doing this so I haven't given it much thought. Ok guys discuss!

Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades

Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades
Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades
Arc Flash Clothing, Gloves, KneePads, Tool Belts, Pouches, Tool Carriers, etc. etc....

#17276 - 11/23/02 04:30 PM Re: Equipment ground bar
txsparky Offline

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 578
Loc: Magnolia,.Texas U.S.A.
That would make the neutral solely dependant on the mounting screws used.Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.There should(IMO)be a jumper wire installed from the existing bar to the new one.

#17277 - 11/23/02 04:36 PM Re: Equipment ground bar
pauluk Offline

Registered: 08/11/01
Posts: 7693
Loc: Norfolk, England
You'd have neutral current flowing through part of the panel's outer casing during normal operation.

That doesn't sit well with me.

#17278 - 11/25/02 04:12 AM Re: Equipment ground bar
sparky Offline

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5545
remember, our entire system from the MBJ to the x-former is a combo noodle/grounding conductor.
(that evil noodle of ours...the root of many problems here....)

The 02' has dictated that all noodles be under dedicated terminations, so this then creates a space problem for which added G-bars is going to be a common fix.

Now i'm wondering about how to obtain a 'floating' G-bar for similar sub-panel dilema's

#17279 - 11/25/02 06:51 AM Re: Equipment ground bar
HotLine1 Offline


Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6832
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
If it's the main panel, with the main disco, then that's where the neutral is bonded to the ground conductors, correct?
If you are adding another termination bar (neutral/ground) the bar you are adding should (IMHO) have a jumper connected to the "factory" bar. The "jumper" should be sized according to the incoming neutral that is connected to the "factory" bar.

If it's a sub-panel, then there has to be a "ground" bar, and an "isolated" neutral bar, with a "ground" and "neutral" conductor for each.

If the "added" bar in your scenario is "mounted" to the panel enclosure, then you are using the panel enclosure for a "neutral & ground connection back to the "factory" bar & bond. The current passing through other "grounds" depending on the resistances. Not Good.

Hopefully my explanation above is clear enough to understand.

#17280 - 11/25/02 09:00 AM Re: Equipment ground bar
Redsy Offline

Registered: 03/28/01
Posts: 2138
Loc: Bucks County PA
It would have been better to relocate the grounds from the original neutral bar to the new ground bus to free up the spaces for the new neutrals.

#17281 - 11/25/02 09:04 AM Re: Equipment ground bar
sparky66wv Offline

Registered: 11/17/00
Posts: 2342
Loc: West Virginia
And still have a #4 bonding jumper between the bars...
Residential/Commercial Inspector
5 Star Inspections
Member IAEI

#17282 - 11/25/02 10:06 AM Re: Equipment ground bar
ElectricAL Offline

Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 615
Loc: Minneapolis, MN USA
E Scott,

Interesting twist!

The problem is that the branch circuit neutral current is forced to return to the bond point through the enclosure of the service, even though we're only talking about half a foot or so. This applies to each neutral that is connected to the added ground bar.

That "half foot or so" of sheet metal can't be a neutral, even though its the service disco.
Al Hildenbrand

#17283 - 11/25/02 12:38 PM Re: Equipment ground bar
jes Offline

Registered: 07/12/02
Posts: 103
Loc: CT
My Square D info says that the add-on bar is for equipment grounding ONLY. The factory installed neutral bar(s) are required to have a minimum number of terminals for landing neutrals based on the number of circuits the panel is arranged to supply. Where there are a large number of equipment ground conductors they MAY be landed more than one to a terminal IF the panel is so listed (and marked) OR an additional bar kit must be installed. Terminals used for equipment grounding are treated differently than those for neutrals because the connection does not undergo the cyclic loading and expansion/contraction of the current carrying neutral.

#17284 - 11/25/02 01:10 PM Re: Equipment ground bar
sparky Offline

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5545
That "half foot or so" of sheet metal can't be a neutral, even though its the service disco.

then what do we can an all mettalic service ?

Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

ECN Electrical Forums - sponsored by Electrical Contractor Network - Electrical and Code Related Discussion for Electrical Contractors, Electricians, Inspectors, Instructors, Engineers and other related Professionals