The Electrical Contractor Network

ECN Electrical Forum
Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals

Books, Tools and Test Equipment for Electrical and Construction Trades

Register Now!

Register Now!

We want your input!

Featured:
   

2017 NEC and Related
2017 NEC
Now Available!

   
Recent Posts
Sprinklered equipment 26-008
by bigpapa
Yesterday at 04:24 PM
On Delay Relay with Auto Reset
by Potseal
12/01/16 09:59 AM
Wow, that was close!
by jraef
11/28/16 07:06 PM
Earthquake in New Zeeland
by RODALCO
11/27/16 11:25 PM
Calling all Non-US members!! (Non-US only)
by Tjia1981
11/27/16 06:33 AM
New in the Gallery:
12.5A through 0.75mm flex (just out of curiosity)
Shout Box

Top Posters (30 Days)
gfretwell 15
HotLine1 10
Trumpy 8
Texas_Ranger 8
sparkyinak 7
Who's Online
0 registered (), 107 Guests and 5 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#172068 - 12/11/07 07:11 PM panel in a remodel
dilydalyer Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 59
Loc: tennessee
This may be in the wrong forum.I have no adapter to send pics off phone'but has anyone heard of electrical eq named"electric center"?Has a red bulldog on front of panel and "push-button" breakers....

Top
Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades

Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades
Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades
Arc Flash Clothing, Gloves, KneePads, Tool Belts, Pouches, Tool Carriers, etc. etc....

#172070 - 12/11/07 07:19 PM Re: panel in a remodel [Re: dilydalyer]
KJay Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/07
Posts: 763
Loc: MA, USA
Sounds like the old ITE Bulldog. You can still buy breakers for replacement use but they are now very expensive.


Edited by KJay (12/11/07 07:20 PM)

Top
#172076 - 12/11/07 08:54 PM Re: panel in a remodel [Re: KJay]
ausador Offline
Member

Registered: 03/26/07
Posts: 49
Loc: Central Florida
That is a bulldog panel....later to be known as a ITE "pushmatic" panel.....

ITE electric still manufactures these breakers (at least in the smaller sizes that U.L. still allows)

An ITE P120 is a singlr pole 20 amp, An ITE P220 is a double pole 20 amp...etc, etc, etc.....

Last I heard U.L. had pulled the listing for all the larger amperage breakers and they were no longer allowed to be manufactured. I think I had heard anything bigger than a 2 pole 50amp is no longer obtainable...but thats heresay and I'm probably wrong...

They are still availible from some breaker remanufactureing/reconditioning outlets but as KJay said the costs for those are downright frightening and besides where is the manufacturers backing in case the place burns and you get named in a lawsuit? Is a little piddling company like miami breaker that resells these things going to help?....I don't think so....

For the most part when confronted with a pushmatic nowadays I automatically start thinking service change/upgrade...my $0.02......

Top
#172102 - 12/13/07 09:34 AM Re: panel in a remodel [Re: ausador]
KJay Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/07
Posts: 763
Loc: MA, USA
Hi ausador,
I don’t want to get off track from the OP’s subject, but you bring up a very good point. There is kind of the same situation with Federal Pacific [Stablok] and “piddling” companies manufacturing these retrofit circuit breakers and other brands as well, such as Zinsco. I have seen spanking new FSP breakers made in China from a company named Unique Circuit Breaker. They are only tagged with an ETL [Electrical Testing Laboratory] listing and not a UL listing.
I can understand someone not wanting to replace the entire panel just because they may have a bad breaker or maybe want to add another circuit for an air conditioner, but I’m wondering how they can get away with marketing these breakers like this and what the implications would be to an unsuspecting contractor or consumer who installs one of these thinking they are OEM and have a UL listing.

Not sure, but I think a company named American Circuit Breaker owns the patent and tooling for the FSP line of breakers and has an actual UL listing. \:o
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
At the same time I suppose I should also go into the IAEI and CPSC final decision on FSP [Stablok] and the hysteria, whether real or imagined, around these cb’s, but that really gets off track of this persons post. It might also reopen some old wounds. Maybe in another post.
;\)

Top
#172104 - 12/13/07 11:28 AM Re: panel in a remodel [Re: KJay]
HotLine1 Offline

Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6804
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
American Circuit Breaker is the legitimate mfg of 'Stablok' breakers for FPE panels. I have not seen any 'other' brands.

Yes, ITE/Bulldog are still around, costs depends on who has them, and how many distributors are in the chain. Like anything else, volume means lower costs, and 'desparation requires a premium price.

As to ETL, most jurisdictions recognize it; it's a testing org like UL.
_________________________
John

Top
#172106 - 12/13/07 05:08 PM Re: panel in a remodel [Re: HotLine1]
sparkyinak Offline
Member

Registered: 07/08/07
Posts: 1295
Loc: Alaska
Not to dilute the OP even more, ETL is a ligit testing facilty. It the breaker has a ETL stamp, it must also have the little US stamp right next to it. Look for a new string on product certification. I will try and get it out tonight. I did s little research on this topic a couple of years back and It was an eye opener
_________________________
"Live Awesome!" - Kevin Carosa

Top
#172113 - 12/13/07 06:36 PM Re: panel in a remodel [Re: sparkyinak]
ausador Offline
Member

Registered: 03/26/07
Posts: 49
Loc: Central Florida
Just to confirm KJay's post, I too have seen "unique" brand circuit breakers that are clones of both "FPE stablock" and also of "Zinsco" breakers. They are sold in the DIY big box chain stores.

The really interesting part of this is when you go to the counter and ask for the catalog of the old "zinsco" type breakers that aren't stocked on the shelf. Apparently I can order all those breakers that U.L. has denied a listing to for the last ten years or so. These will be E.T.L test lab listed according to the catalog.

Uhhh...didn't U.L. pull the listing because of the fact that they coundn't carry the amperage for long periods of time and resulted in the crummy slip fitting to the buss bar burning up? Sigh....U.L. pulls thier listing so someone else steps forward and offers one? Where is that going to end?....some states already recognize 3 different listings and several other companies are clamoring to try to get in on the gravy train....

Admittedly U.L. sometimes ticks me off with some of thier light fixture listings....but all-in-all I think they do thier job well. Ten years from now will I have to carry around a list of the recognized testing agencies in my state?....Hmmm..lets see...U.L....nope...E.T.L....nope...C.S.A....nope....I.C.C..nope...T.U.V....nope...E.T.M.....nope...Ohhh here it is, it's listed by L.B.I. (Shudder)

Top
#172114 - 12/13/07 06:54 PM Re: panel in a remodel [Re: ausador]
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: Blue Collar Country
Well, this thread has gone a bit off on a tangent... \:D

UL is quite adamant ... neither FPE nor Zinsco ever 'lost' their listing. Both firms continued to make listed products to the day they closed their doors. As far as UL is concerned, they closed their doors simply for business (or lack thereof) reasons.

Indeed, the parent of Square D continues to make, and sell, FPE breakers in Canada.

UL decided, some years back, to go the "ISO9000" route. As a consequence of this act, they inadvertently opened up their market to competing testing firms. ETL is one such firm.

Whether a firm chooses to do business with UL is their decision, and may be influenced by many factors.

Whatever a UL listing may mean ... NEVER confuse it with being any sort of stamp of quality. Some of the most absurd products have managed to pass the appropriate tests. The tests are for 'safety,' not for effectiveness, or quality.

Top



ECN Electrical Forums - sponsored by Electrical Contractor Network - Electrical and Code Related Discussion for Electrical Contractors, Electricians, Inspectors, Instructors, Engineers and other related Professionals