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#169927 - 10/20/07 11:04 AM In an ice machine a vending machine?
gfretwell Offline

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9012
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
For the purposes of GFCI protection would an outdoor ice machine, used by the public be considered a vending machine?
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Greg Fretwell

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#169928 - 10/20/07 11:33 AM Re: In an ice machine a vending machine? [Re: gfretwell]
electure Offline

Member

Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 4225
Loc: Fullerton, CA USA
Does it have money slots?


Vending _Machine

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#169931 - 10/20/07 04:33 PM Re: In an ice machine a vending machine? [Re: electure]
gfretwell Offline

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9012
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
Ok so it is the coin slot that singles vending machines out for the GFCI. Good to know.
Is this a "dedicated" receptacle?
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#169936 - 10/20/07 06:57 PM Re: In an ice machine a vending machine? [Re: gfretwell]
George Little Offline
Member

Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 1492
Loc: Michigan USA
Greg- I'm reading 210.8(B)(4) and I don't see that a vending machine is the trigger for asking for GFCI protection. Nor would installing a single receptacle excludes one from GFCI protection. Look at it again in the '05 NEC and see if I'm correct. The fact that it could be outside in a space accessible to the public would require it to be GFCI protected.
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#169941 - 10/20/07 10:14 PM Re: In an ice machine a vending machine? [Re: George Little]
gfretwell Offline

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9012
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
George, 422.51? (new in 2005)

"Outside" does trigger the GFCI tho.

BTW the AHJ did not catch this. I questioned it and the installer told me it was dedicated so it wasn't required. That turns out to only be true of ice melting equipment, not ice making equipment.

I was just curious what happens if this ice machine was inside.
For that matter, if this was a vending machine with the coin accepter jumpered out like you see in some private clubs, is it still a vending machine? I guess this is the time I should be digging out my 2005 ROP to see what they were thinking.
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#169943 - 10/20/07 10:46 PM Re: In an ice machine a vending machine? [Re: gfretwell]
gfretwell Offline

Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9012
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
This gets more confusing the more I read. This comes from the CPSC (2005ROP 17-6) and they cite a couple cases of kids getting zapped touching a vending machine with a broken ground pin and a fault. I sure don't see why this is a "vending machine" problem. It would seem to me any piece of equipment you can touch would do this ... which brings me back to the original issue I had. Big stainless steel machine, puddle of water in front of it and off you go.
Why isn't this drinking fountains, grocery store coolers and a juke box in a bar too?
I guess I shouldn't say anything out loud or we will GFCI everything.
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#169944 - 10/21/07 05:40 AM Re: In an ice machine a vending machine? [Re: gfretwell]
George Little Offline
Member

Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 1492
Loc: Michigan USA
I see you are correct Greg- Thanks for the update. We are just getting on the '05 NEC here in Michigan so I'm going to use that for an excuse. As for: "Why isn't this drinking fountains, grocery store coolers and a juke box in a bar too?" I think it's probably only a matter of time. Have a nice day in the bikini state Greg and avoid the storms.
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#169948 - 10/21/07 09:07 AM Re: In an ice machine a vending machine? [Re: George Little]
Alan Nadon Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 398
Loc: Elkhart, IN. USA
George, I already went around with OSHA on the drinking fountians and GFIs. The result was adding the last sentence to the definition in 680 of Fountain. "The definition does not include drinking fountains." \:\)
Outside receptacles should be GFI.
Vending machines indoors, would include those that do not have refrigeration units. They would need GFI unless there is a GFI in the appliance cord within 12 inches of the plug.
Since the vending machines aren't there when doing the inspection who is suposed to enfoce the Code ? Do you require a GFI receptacle when the owner claims that all the machines will have built in protection when they arrive ?
Is it even a vending machine outlet if the machine isn't there?
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Alan--
If it was easy, anyone could do it.

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#169953 - 10/21/07 09:31 AM Re: In an ice machine a vending machine? [Re: Alan Nadon]
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 5300
Loc: Blue Collar Country
Alan, your comment reminds me of an old saw:

"Figures don't lie, but liars can figure!"

There's nothing that can't be twisted, distorted, or misapplied by the incompetent and unscrupulous. Heck - look at the case loads in civil court!

At some point, folks have to engage their brains. Will honest folks sometimes disagree? Sure. Most times, compromise is easy, accommodation is cheap, and everyone has better things to do than to argue.

There are two ways to write a rule: as a general principle, and as a specific rule. If folks are going to be deliberate idiots, then general rules fail. As Paul Harvey says. self rule can't work without self control.
Naturally, specific rules are never specific enough, nor do they fit all situations.

Back on topic: Let's ask "how is a vending machine different from all other machines?" I submit that they are subject to unique forms of abuse .... with money as the trigger.
Sure, the electricity doesn't care if there's money within. Thieves do - as do those who have been cheated. It's just not sporting to zap those who are tipping, rocking, prying, hitting, and fiddling with the thing.
Likewise, the things are often placed where there is no supervision, and no access to the breakers.

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#170064 - 10/25/07 08:24 AM Re: In an ice machine a vending machine? [Re: renosteinke]
SteveFehr Offline
Member

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1192
Loc: Chesapeake, VA
SHOULD you put a GFCI on these circuits? - Yes. Common sense tells us all that much.

MUST you put a GFCI on these circuits? - Maybe. Do you really want to have to go to court to find out, though?

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