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#16748 - 11/16/02 03:26 AM what is your answer to this question by law.
jlhmaint Offline
Member

Registered: 05/25/02
Posts: 208
Loc: Fredericktown, OH, U.S.A
Go to this link and see what your answer is to this question. also what is the answer here in the United states?

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?SQID=36669&SPID=237&page=1&CFID=65331336&CFTOKEN=65152517

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#16749 - 11/16/02 03:40 AM Re: what is your answer to this question by law.
sparky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5545
A worthy Q.....perhaps our Canadian brethren here could answer per thier locality....

 Quote:
(Electrical) Nov 14, 2002
I have nowhere else to ask this so please clear this up. Is it against the law for anyone other than a certified Electrician (Journyman) to work within an Electrical Maintenance capacity in a Plant? What law? Please give me a reference to an Ontario Act. ,Law or Regulation. I believe it is so but I can't find the source of this law. Thanks.



Should said poster wish an answer south of the boarder, Vermont's Laws on this are here.


 Quote:
§ 910. License not required

A license shall not be required for the following types of work:

(1) Any electrical work, including construction, installation, operation, maintenance and repair of electrical installations in, on or about equipment or premises, which are owned or leased by the operator of any industrial or manufacturing plant, if the work is done under the supervision of an electrical engineer or master electrician in the employ of the operator;


bold to indicate that this NEVER happens, think about this...what contractor or EE in his/her right mind is going to assume liability for the work of others?

ergo----dumb law that does'nt work, shop sweep/maintenace dude continues on unsupervised.....

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#16750 - 11/16/02 05:05 AM Re: what is your answer to this question by law.
Joe Carpenter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/01
Posts: 55
Loc: USA
To The Defense of Maintenance Electricians who are not Licensed. And I am not speaking of all of them, only the ones who take their Job seriously. A good M.E. knows his plant like the back of his hand. He knows what the electrical system is in his particular plant. He takes pride in keping the system well maintained to insure minimal disruptions to production. A good M.E. will also employ the help of appropriate engineers etc when needed. I have more then once seen Licensed Electrical Contractors come into a plant, goof off and do substandard work and charge outrageouly to the dismay of the M.E. Here again I am NOT knocking all Licensed Electrical Contractors, I know most of them are reputable in their trade and charge fairly. I'm just saying a Good M.E knows the system in his plant a whole lot better then an outside contractor.

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#16751 - 11/16/02 05:23 AM Re: what is your answer to this question by law.
sparky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5545
In my experience Joe, the good ME's don't hang out in those industries that subscribe primarily to crisis management.

As a matter of fact, i've known my share of good ME's that tied of 'putting out fires' 24/7, and actually presented a cost anaylisis of this vs. reliable installs & retrofits.

The long run $$$ per 'widget' is usually justifiable, but i guess it just buggers up the 1/4ly's or bedazzels the bean counters.....so out the door they go......

Mainly, those whom manage in said style simply wish to circumvent any codes, regulations, bueracracy etc by sending in the unqualified and unknowing.

(cue..the good,bad & ugly theme..)

I get to clean up thier mess, stuff that would send most OSHA dudes into a catatonic fit....so it gives me a 'tude, sorry for the rant.....

Steve (donn kneed noo e'stinkin' baadges) ~aka sparky



[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 11-16-2002).]

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#16752 - 11/16/02 06:06 AM Re: what is your answer to this question by law.
electure Offline

Member

Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 4226
Loc: Fullerton, CA USA
After a cursory glance around the Engineering forum, it looks like the only "Codelike" categories deal with IEEE standards.
I've got to agree with Sparky. Maintenance Electricians should do just that...maintain. Even if allowed to pull permits, they usually don't, because management doesn't want any type of inspector in their plant.
I go into plants on a regular basis to fix goof-ups caused by the "in house" people. I've found disconnects wired backwards (change a fuse in that baby!), "permanently/temporary" installations of 100 amps 480..sans conduit, with the machine operator stepping on the wire now and then.
The list goes on and on.

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#16753 - 11/16/02 08:12 PM Re: what is your answer to this question by law.
jlhmaint Offline
Member

Registered: 05/25/02
Posts: 208
Loc: Fredericktown, OH, U.S.A
I have been working in factories since i got out of high school iam now 30 and have a degree in industrial electrical maintenance and do most all wiring and troubleshooting in our plant. But i take pride in my work and follow the nec to the best of my ability.

But i have seen exactly what you guys are talking about. I just recently talked with my boss about our shop letting maint helpers people loaned to us from other areas wire up stuff and troubleshoot electrical problems and told him i am totally agianst it.

since i have to come in and fix what they have done or guide them in how to fuse something etc etc.

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#16754 - 11/17/02 08:01 AM Re: what is your answer to this question by law.
gramps Offline
Member

Registered: 08/25/02
Posts: 120
Loc: ohio
in defense of those of us who are called, from time to time, to go into these industrial areas and finish a job originally began by the in-house maint. people, i have been asked to go into places and pull 1000 ft.+ runs of 250-500 mcm wire into conduit that was installed with Lb's backwards, back-to-back 90's, no pull points for 300 ft. or more, pipe hanging from "industrial strength" wire ties, 4-inch emt with virtually none of the set screws on the connectors tight, using customer-supplied wire that was apparently bought at a salvage sale in 75-100 ft. lengths, with the customer insisting that all these short pieces be butt-spliced together for the 1000 ft. run. and, he needs it done "this weekend"....and, no, none of his maint. people will be available to help, (how convenient!), because they are all gonna be off for deer season.

i dont take these jobs anymore.....let the in-house guys finish what they started, i say....i dont need the money that bad.........................

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#16755 - 11/17/02 10:08 AM Re: what is your answer to this question by law.
jlhmaint Offline
Member

Registered: 05/25/02
Posts: 208
Loc: Fredericktown, OH, U.S.A
I agree with you gramps however in defense of us maintenance men. we have good ones and bad ones just like you guys. we have guys who our just there to get a paycheck and those who really do care and want to do it right. and just like you guys that aren't self employed we have a boss that tells us what to do and how we can disagree to a point depending on the type of company that we work for but some times we don't win.

BUT back to the main point of the question so it is legal for such work to take place.

what about just letting anyone do it like i said early in the post i have had this problem of our plant letting maintenance helpers (people such as machinist from the shop do electrical stuff) what is the law on this issue.

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#16756 - 11/17/02 02:02 PM Re: what is your answer to this question by law.
electure Offline

Member

Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 4226
Loc: Fullerton, CA USA
jihmaint,
Sorry, but your link just hooks me up with a website, nothing specific.
It's a basic engineering for "plant people" website

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#16757 - 11/17/02 05:30 PM Re: what is your answer to this question by law.
jlhmaint Offline
Member

Registered: 05/25/02
Posts: 208
Loc: Fredericktown, OH, U.S.A
look at sparkys first reply he quoted the actual question from the web site.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Electrical) Nov 14, 2002
I have nowhere else to ask this so please clear this up. Is it against the law for anyone other than a certified Electrician (Journyman) to work within an Electrical Maintenance capacity in a Plant? What law? Please give me a reference to an Ontario Act. ,Law or Regulation. I believe it is so but I can't find the source of this law. Thanks.

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