The Electrical Contractor Network

ECN Electrical Forum
Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals

Books, Tools and Test Equipment for Electrical and Construction Trades

Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#164033 - 05/23/07 12:28 PM Re-using an old panel
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: Blue Collar Country
I really have to hand it to Norcal for finding these two violations.
(To understand where the problems some into the picture, the panel is decades old - it has not been made for that long - while the building is only three years old.)

First, a view of the panel:





A closer look at the label reveals long abandoned artwork:





Finally, a look at the breakers suggests our violations:





What are the violations?

The panel is fed by 'back feeding' a breaker. While in itself not a bad thing, since 1990 the NEC has required retaining clips for these breakers. (408.36(F)). This panel pre-dates the requirement, and such clips were never made for it.

The other violation is suggested by the filler plate on the third space. This pattern -maintained through the panel - suggests a 'delta' service, with the 'high leg' on the third phase. 408.3(E) requires that this high leg be the middle leg.

Utilities often supply such services with the 'high leg' in the third position, and the metering equipment requires it to be there. After the meter, though, we are required to re-locate that phase to the middle buss.


Edited by renosteinke (05/23/07 12:29 PM)

Top
2014 / 2011 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides
#164048 - 05/23/07 04:33 PM Re: Re-using an old panel [Re: renosteinke]
NORCAL Offline
Member

Registered: 09/25/02
Posts: 807
The 3 pole C/B in the lower right feeds the receptacle in this thread. http://www.electrical-contractor.net/for...ge/1#Post163887


Should we take bets on the 2 pole breaker being a standard 120/240 volt rating instead of a 240 volt rated as required since 1 pole is on high leg?

Top
#164075 - 05/24/07 10:00 AM Re: Re-using an old panel [Re: NORCAL]
EV607797 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/25/06
Posts: 756
Loc: Fredericksburg, VA, USA
That's definitely an old panel. I am pretty sure that they dropped that ITE logo in the late 1970's. Then, of course when Siemens bought the company, the ITE name and logo went away completely. No doubt if it's in a 3 year old building without a Siemens label, it's reused.
_________________________
---Ed---

"But the guy at Home Depot said it would work."

Top
#164089 - 05/24/07 05:20 PM Re: Re-using an old panel [Re: EV607797]
NORCAL Offline
Member

Registered: 09/25/02
Posts: 807
Gould Inc. bought I-T-E Imperial Corp. in 1976, by the late '70s Gould had their logo on most of the I-T-E line.

Top
#164506 - 06/04/07 05:16 PM Re: Re-using an old panel [Re: NORCAL]
HotLine1 Offline

Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6805
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
When you guys refer to 'used', do you mean..
Removed from somewhere, and put in a job?
or
Could it have been 'existing' to remain where it is??

John
_________________________
John

Top
#164513 - 06/04/07 07:56 PM Re: Re-using an old panel [Re: HotLine1]
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 5305
Loc: Blue Collar Country
By "used" I meant that the panel was clearly once part of another installation ... replaced, salvaged, and then put to use again.

Apart from the fact that this panel pre-dates the building it serves by decades, the guy who did the work just happened to have a 'day job' that put him in a position to salvage such things.

Top
#164518 - 06/05/07 01:48 AM Re: Re-using an old panel [Re: renosteinke]
iwire Offline
Moderator

Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4343
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
 Originally Posted By: renosteinke
Apart from the fact that this panel pre-dates the building it serves by decades,


It seems an inspection should have prevented this.

Where I am the building would still be unoccupied waiting for the electrical corrections to be made.
_________________________
Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

Top
#164660 - 06/08/07 08:15 AM Re: Re-using an old panel [Re: iwire]
Elviscat Offline
Member

Registered: 08/13/05
Posts: 214
Loc: Seattle Washington USA
oh come on guys, can you honestley say you've never used a perfectly good 60's-80's salvaged panel?

-will

Top
#164668 - 06/08/07 12:36 PM Re: Re-using an old panel [Re: Elviscat]
Texas_Ranger Offline
Member

Registered: 12/17/01
Posts: 2343
Loc: Vienna, Austria
To be honest I don't have problems reusing an old panel that is still in good shape and fit for the purpose. However, there are two big issues: in commercial work I would certainly NOT do that for the reason of liability issues. And I probably wouldn't use a panel with breakers of that vintage anyway (fuses would be different).

For example in my own place I just moved the 1977 breaker panel to a new location with a new service and added a 1914 fuse panel as a sub to get more circuits.

Top



ECN Electrical Forums - sponsored by Electrical Contractor Network - Electrical and Code Related Discussion for Electrical Contractors, Electricians, Inspectors, Instructors, Engineers and other related Professionals