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#15718 - 10/28/02 10:33 AM Handmade Lamps: UL Listing and Labelling
sparky66wv Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/00
Posts: 2339
Loc: West Virginia
At my biggest job, there are a lot of high-end lamps and luminaires that are handmade, one-off type of designs, more art than fixture.

I'm aware that lamps and fixtures must be labelled as a UL Approved Assembly, and that individual UL stamps on various parts, such as the plug or the lamp socket (Edison Base) doesn't count towards this...

How does one make a one-off handmade lamp a get approval from UL?

Artisan Craftmanship is BIG in West Virginia, especially in the hippy-laden area of Greenbrier County.

Also, a neighboring county has the Tamarack which showcases artisans through-out the state.

What I'm getting at:

I might start making lamps. You wouldn't believe what they're selling for...

Piece of driftwood, a lamp kit from any various hardware supply, stretch some brain-tanned squirrel hyde over a lampshade frame, and PRESTO! A $400 to $800 lamp.

Heck, anything... Old horse shoes, railroad spikes, anything wooden... As long as it has a rustic look and is priced high enough to be desirable (and low enough not to be ridiculous) it'll sell. I'm thoroughly convinced.

Sky's the limit if I can get the UL thing worked out...

Heck, I have a Cherokee Nation Card, I can even make genuine Native American Lamps!



Any ideas, horror stories, or roadblocks?

I kinda figure they'll want thousands of copies of each model to destroy in every way possible and a full report to the nth degree detail of each and every design...

That would be impossible.



Awaiting my bubble to be burst...

-Virgil

PS: This \"Person's\" doing it in Alaska...


[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 10-28-2002).]
_________________________
-Virgil
Residential/Commercial Inspector
5 Star Inspections
Member IAEI

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#15719 - 10/28/02 02:08 PM Re: Handmade Lamps: UL Listing and Labelling
spyder Offline
Member

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 211
Loc: Massachusetts
I run into the same thing where I am from. Lots of handmade brass exterior fixtures. The sockets have the UL stamp but the fixture does not.

I believe it is up the AHJ to make the call on whether the fixture is acceptable.

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#15720 - 10/28/02 03:53 PM Re: Handmade Lamps: UL Listing and Labelling
sparky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5545
Man, a stump with a bulb for 2 bills!

move over pet rock!
Check out this maker great for hunting season..
Virgil, why don't you cruise some of these on-line lighting showrooms, some have a vendor list to these small makers, and e-mail links.

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#15721 - 10/28/02 04:12 PM Re: Handmade Lamps: UL Listing and Labelling
HotLine1 Offline

Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6805
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
Hey 66:
It's a call by the AHJ. We have "custom" 1 off fixtures at a few country clubs. Custom made stuff, brass, chrome, and lots of glass. Components are UL labeled, installation is NEC. (hardwired). Haven't had a problem to date. As to a "plug-in" thing (lamps, swagged fixtures, etc.) our thing stops at the receptacle. What the client plugs-in is the clients decission.
Had an antique chandelier that was $23K, and packed in about $1 k of crate and bubble wrap, the AHJ didn't bat an eye, except for the chain. We used 1/2" proof chain, that the client had a fabric cover made for. Had a few "odd" sconces for a bank office, brass and glass, 1800.00 ea., custom order from a "factory" in NY State, they had a UL label on the box, but not on the fixture.
What we supply has a UL listing, as a complete assembly; what the client supplies, we hang, if it is safe. We don't hang "off shore" cheap knock-offs, and blatant "junk".
The AHJ has the final say.
John
_________________________
John

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#15722 - 10/28/02 04:13 PM Re: Handmade Lamps: UL Listing and Labelling
sparky66wv Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/00
Posts: 2339
Loc: West Virginia


I really was kidding about the Native American thing...



Thanks for the advice on hanging them, and I've already made people sign diclaimers when I am obligated to...

However, I'm thinking I should start making lamps!
Work at home, make two or three or four lamps a week, sell 'em for several bills, no more crawling in attics and under houses!



Steve, thanks for the links, (the second one doesn't work though)... I've been surfing all afternoon, found one in Vermont too...

Let me see if I can find the link again...

BRB.

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 10-28-2002).]
_________________________
-Virgil
Residential/Commercial Inspector
5 Star Inspections
Member IAEI

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#15723 - 10/28/02 04:29 PM Re: Handmade Lamps: UL Listing and Labelling
HotLine1 Offline

Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6805
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
Virgil:
If you can do it, then why not give it a shot.

4x2 bills+8 bills a week, no crawling, etc., but you may get very bored. You don't strike mee as the type of guy who don't want to keep on workin!

If you make 'em, they will sell???
(A play on an old saying)
Good luck if you do. (Maybe a side job??)
John
_________________________
John

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#15724 - 10/28/02 04:39 PM Re: Handmade Lamps: UL Listing and Labelling
sparky66wv Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/00
Posts: 2339
Loc: West Virginia
G. Scatchard Lamps of Vermont

Pottery Type Lamp bases, there's lot's of potters here, in fact, my pseudo-partner, Joe slings the mud ever now and then...

John, Yep, I'm thinking start slow, and see what happens. I figure I got a good ten years of field work left in me... But I got my SSI report today, and retirement is going to be slim!



Here's a scan of the book I bought today.



Copyright 1970, original print. 80 pages, haven't read it yet. Check out the price! That's what I paid too! I love old hardware stores!

Angelo Lamparts published the book, and they still exist as American-De Rosa Lamparts !

I'll be browsing that site for awhile!...... Nope, apparently, there isn't much to browse!

More surfing...



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 10-28-2002).]
_________________________
-Virgil
Residential/Commercial Inspector
5 Star Inspections
Member IAEI

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#15725 - 10/30/02 03:20 AM Re: Handmade Lamps: UL Listing and Labelling
sparky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5545
Virgil,
what have you to loose?
if your stuck with a few lamp parts, you can probably solicit the lamp repairs that the rest of us turn down...

as to the listing legalities, can any NRTL sanction a lamp?
( maybe this link'l work...)

[story]
There is an iron forge in my town, aka~blacksmiths, speading chesnut tree...
they were creative, started making wrought iron lamps, did'nt know dittly about how to wire them.
They talked to the right people, are listed, and sell all high end fixtures now.....they can't keep up on lamp orders, and are generally fat & happy.....[/story]

also...
i'm sure we've all known more than a few retired sparkys to tinker in the shop here & there, perhaps we should all keep an ear to what may be a lucrative supplement here?

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#15726 - 10/30/02 07:13 AM Re: Handmade Lamps: UL Listing and Labelling
ElectricAL Offline
Member

Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 615
Loc: Minneapolis, MN USA
'66

Minnesota's regulatory language that applies directly is in Subpart 3(D)(1) or (2) in the quote below.

Awhile back, I faced the same questions. I bumped into Leo, a Custom Metal Fabricator / Artiste, on a high end resi job, and a few years later he called me for help. Leo was working in an area inspected by an AHJ renowned for his picky-ness and inflexibility. The AHJ rejected the one-of-a kind cast fixtures (about 30 of 'em, sconces, pendants and plain old surface mount luminaires) that Leo was asking the site electrician to install in a new 3Mil single family dwelling.

At that time, the State of Minnesota had ended a period of requiring onlylabeled and listed equipment within its borders. This period had created all kinds of problems, including problems for some very big taxpayers that used very expensive new machines of foreign manufacture. So, Minnesota Statute was expanded. Part of the current language is below, and is one State's solution to the questions you're raising, Virgil.

A little work with the AHJ was required to bring him up to current statute, and, under the statute as written then, a letter from a PE was accepted instead of testing. Now, you can do the testing, as the manufacturer.

 Quote:
State of Minnesota Rules Chapter 3800

3800.3620 APPROVAL OF ELECTRICAL EQUIP-MENT.

Subp. 2. Alternatives to listing and labeling.

With the exception of electrical equipment of types specifically required to be listed by the National Electrical Code, the board shall accept one of the applicable methods described in item A or B as an alternative to listing and labeling.

A. Evaluation by a testing laboratory or by a registered or licensed electrical engineer who has no financial or other interest in the manufacture or sale of the equipment, provided that any deficiencies identified by the evaluation are corrected and the equipment complies with the listed requirements. A written report of the evaluation shall be submitted directly to the board, and shall state standards that were applied in the evaluation. Evaluation reports by an electrical engineer acting independently of a testing laboratory shall also include an item-by-item comparison of the equipment with the requirements to be listed. If the board finds that the evaluation or evaluation report is incomplete or inaccurate it retains the right require further evidence of compliance or to reject the equipment. Evaluations conducted according to the procedures in this item shall be considered evidence of compliance of all identical equipment produced by that manufacturer for a period of one year from the time the evaluation was completed, or until the equipment has been listed, whichever is less, provided that the manufacturer has applied for listing of the equipment, or produces fewer than 100 such units per year. Where additional identical equipment will be produced, the manufacturer shall provide the board with a written statement giving the equipment model number and agreeing that all subsequent equipment will be identical to that which was evaluated and, where the equipment has not been submitted for listing, shall also provide a written report to the board 12 months from the date of the evaluation report which lists the serial numbers of the equipment installed in Minnesota over the preceding twelve months. Where deficiencies are identified by the initial evaluation report, those deficiencies shall be corrected for all subsequent units, the changes shall be verified by the person who performed the initial evaluation, and an amended report shall be submitted to the board. If the manufacturer deviates from the construction established by the evaluation report, the equipment shall be re-evaluated and any non-complying equipment that was sold brought into compliance. Where the evidence of compliance is an evaluation according to this item, the manufacturer shall affix a durable permanent label to the equipment in a readily visible location, which states: "This equipment is identical to equipment that was evaluated by (name), and found to be in compliance with the requirements to be listed. A copy of the evaluation report was filed with the Minnesota State Board of Electricity on (date)."

B. Where procedures acceptable to the testing laboratory are followed, a manufacturer of unlisted equipment shall be permitted to submit such equipment to another manufacturer of similar listed equipment for evaluation, correction of non-complying construction, and labeling.


Subp. 3. Equipment exempt from listing requirements.

A. Industrial machinery as defined by Section 670-2 of the National Electrical Code is not required to be listed where all electrical components of the equipment, including electrical control panels and solid-state motor controls, are in compliance with item B, C, or D, or subpart 1 or 2, and all of the machine electrical wiring is in compliance with the National Electrical Code.

B. Electrical equipment enclosed in a listed cabinet or box suitable for the environment in which it is installed, and electrically connected only to circuits supplied from listed Class 2, logic level, communications, or other circuits with maximum open circuit voltage of 30 volts rms AC, or DC, and overcurrent protection of eight amperes or less, or to any combination of such circuits, is not required to be listed, provided further that any printed wiring boards shall be of listed material and shall be permitted to be supplied from a labeled microcomputer power supply.

C. Electrical control equipment constructed according to the listed requirements and enclosed in a listed cabinet or box suitable for the environment in which it is located, where the enclosed equipment consists of eight or fewer listed components, other than wires, cables, cords, terminal assemblies, non-electrical components, and those covered under item B, provided that the devices are not electrically connected to circuits on a printed wiring board other than those circuits covered under item B, is not required to be listed.

D. Custom-made electrical equipment or related installations that are designed and manufactured to a purchaser's specifications and are not marketed to the general public are exempt from listing and labeling requirements. Equipment or installations exempt under this item are subject to the following:

(1) they must be determined to be safe for their intended use by the manufacturer on the basis of test data which the purchaser keeps and makes available to the electrical inspection authority having jurisdiction, as required by Code of Federal Regulations, title 29, part 1910.399 (1991), for equipment or installations subject to national occupational safety and health laws; or

(2) they must be inspected by the electrical inspection authority having jurisdiction for compliance with the construction requirements of the applicable electrical standards used by electrical testing laboratories to evaluate the equipment, or the National Electrical Code. Schematic wiring diagrams, component layout diagrams, and component electrical rating information shall be provided to enable evaluation under this subitem.
(emphasis added - Al)

E. Utilization equipment as defined by the National Electrical Code is not required to be listed if:

(1) the equipment includes eight or fewer electrical components which are listed or are exempt from listing by item B or C; and

(2) all wiring that is part of the equipment is in compliance with the National Electrical Code.


Al
_________________________
Al Hildenbrand

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#15727 - 10/30/02 07:42 AM Re: Handmade Lamps: UL Listing and Labelling
sparky66wv Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/00
Posts: 2339
Loc: West Virginia
Wow, thanks guys!

Now what would I be?

A lampolier?
A luminaireier?
A light fixturer?

_________________________
-Virgil
Residential/Commercial Inspector
5 Star Inspections
Member IAEI

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