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#146174 - 10/31/06 11:13 AM Fluoros in sales area -- Diffusers/guards needed?
pauluk Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/01
Posts: 7693
Loc: Norfolk, England
I was discussing lighting options for a commercial store. The subject of the H.S.E. came up, in particular as to whether fluoros mounted above aisles in a sales area should be provided with either diffusers or other protection against possible breakage (or against a tube simply dropping out of the sockets).

I've never heard of this being any specific H.S.E. requirement in a "public" area.

Thoughts?

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#146175 - 10/31/06 01:55 PM Re: Fluoros in sales area -- Diffusers/guards needed?
RODALCO Offline
Member

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 863
Loc: Titirangi, Akld, New Zealand
Never heard of it Pauluk, or not at this stage in New Zealand.

The possibilty of a misaligned tube falling perhaps does exist. but how often does it happen ??

Sounds like an other idea from some bureaucrat to put more regulations in place and additinal costs for the consumers to cover their fluorescent lamps.

If they are installed correctly the tubes should not fall out of the holders.

We may as well put earthed nets underneath all overhead HT lines in case a wire beaks, just in case
_________________________
The product of rotation, excitation and flux produces electricty.

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#146176 - 10/31/06 02:20 PM Re: Fluoros in sales area -- Diffusers/guards needed?
aussie240 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 222
Loc: Blue Mountains, NSW, Australia
I've seen plenty of examples where the whole fluoro fitting is held up with nothing more than the wiring to it because the fixing hardware has failed. A good example here is self tappers straight into Gyprock or the wrong size Rawl plugs/screws/hole size for brick/concrete installations. With a twin 40W fitting there's just too much weight to get away with such bodges. Can't say I've ever seen a tube drop out by itself, however.

, but can't recall a tube ever falling out on its own.

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#146177 - 10/31/06 08:21 PM Re: Fluoros in sales area -- Diffusers/guards needed?
techie Offline
Member

Registered: 05/17/05
Posts: 240
Loc: palo alto, ca usa
I have actually seen a tube fall out by itself.. I suspect that it wasn't firmly seated (2 pin sockets), and vibration caused it to work its way loose..

I've also seen fixtures protected by protective screening, with the tubes lying on the screening..

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#146178 - 11/02/06 01:04 AM Re: Fluoros in sales area -- Diffusers/guards needed?
Trumpy Offline

Member

Registered: 07/05/02
Posts: 8540
Loc: SI,New Zealand
Paul,
Good topic mate.
Me and a friend of mine were talking about this very thing today.
OK, I'm aware of the Food Safety Regulations here in NZ, where you have to have all of your fluorescent tubes within a protective tube, in case of breakage of the lamp itself, where that tube is over the top of saleable food products.
Ray,
I'm reminded of a situation in Timaru recently where a single-phasing Air Con unit on a roof caused a few tubes to drop out of thier fittings.
Luckily (whichever way you look at it) the lamps never fell in to any food products, but did catch a pensioner quite unawares.
A defibrillation unit was needed.
I will see if I can get a link to the company that makes these tubes, made to fit T8 tubes.
_________________________
Let's face it, these days if you're not young, you're old - Red Green grin

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#146179 - 11/02/06 02:27 PM Re: Fluoros in sales area -- Diffusers/guards needed?
pauluk Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/01
Posts: 7693
Loc: Norfolk, England
I've never heard of any specific requirement here before, but the rate at which regulations (and "guidelines" which certain H.S.E. stormtroopers then try to enforce as if they were regulations) are being added here these days it's hard to keep up.

I've fired off an e-mail to H.S.E. asking the position.

And yes, there are too many fluoro fittings where the whole thing is in danger of crashing down due to poor fixing.

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#146180 - 11/10/06 04:47 PM Re: Fluoros in sales area -- Diffusers/guards needed?
pauluk Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/01
Posts: 7693
Loc: Norfolk, England
Here's the response from H.S.E., reproduced in full so you can see just how many words they can write to say "we don't really know."
At least I think that's what they're saying!

 Quote:
Ref: RFOR-6VBEB8

Dear Mr P Coxwell

Thank you for your enquiry regarding Fluorescent Lighting.

The HSE do not hold information in relation to fluorescent lighting and the requirements to be fitted with either diffusers or other guards to protect the tubes.

Employers have a general duty of care toward their employees under Section 2 of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, the health, safety and welfare of their employees
while at work.

Section 2 of the Act places general duties on the employer towards employees.

There is a duty of care under section 2 which places duties on employers with regards to their employees. However, section 2 only sets down a general goal, it is not specific:

2. -- (1) It shall be the duty of every employer to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, the health, safety and welfare at work of all his employees.

Additionally Section 3 places general duties upon employers and the self-employed to ensure the health, safety and welfare of anyone not in their employment who are likely to affected by their undertaking.

Reference: Health and safety at Work etc Act 1974 ISBN 0105437743 £12.35

Available from HMSO;

Stationery Office Ltd
PO Box 29
Norwich
NR3 1JN
Telephone: 0870 600 5522
Internet: www.hmso.gov.uk
E-mail: inforoute@hmso.gov.uk

Additionally it would be subject to a risk assessment to ensure the lights are safe and also placed in a safe position:

Risk assessments are a legal requirement under the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999.

Regulation 3 stipulates that:

Every employer shall make a suitable and sufficient assessment of -

(a) the risks to the health and safety of his employees to which they are exposed whilst they are at work; and

(b) the risks to the health and safety of persons not in his employment arising out of or in connection with the conduct by him of his undertaking.

The Approved Code of Practice goes on to say:

This regulation requires all employers and self-employed people to assess the risks to workers and any others who may be affected by their work or business. This will enable them to identify the measures they need to take to comply with health and safety law. All employers should carry out a systematic general examination of the effect of their undertaking, their work activities and the condition of the premises. Those who employ five or more employees should record the significant findings of that risk assessment.

A risk assessment is carried out to identify the risks to health and safety to any person arising out of, or in connection with, work or the conduct of their undertaking. It should identify how the risks arise and how they impact on those affected. This information is needed to make decisions on
how to manage those risks so that the decisions are made in an informed, rational and structured manner, and the action taken is proportionate.

A risk assessment should usually involve identifying the hazards present in any working environment or arising out of commercial activities and work activities, and evaluating the extent of the risks involved, taking into account existing precautions and their effectiveness. In this approved code of practice:

(a) a hazard is something with the potential to cause harm (this can include articles, substances, plant or machines, methods of work, the working environment and other aspects of work organisation);
(b) a risk is the likelihood of potential harm from that hazard being realised. The extent of the risk will depend on:

(i) the likelihood of that harm occurring;

(ii) the potential severity of that harm, i.e. of any resultant injury or adverse health effect; and

(iii) the population which might be affected by the hazard, i.e. the number of people who might be exposed.

Reference: L21: The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999: Approved Code of Practice and Guidance, ISBN 0717624889, £8.00.

The HSE also produce the following publications on risk assessment:

HSG183, Five Steps to Risk Assessment : Case Studies, ISBN 0717615804,
£6.75.
INDG163, Five Steps to risk assessments, single copies are free.

All of the publications referred to are available from HSE Books:

HSE Books
PO Box 1999,
Sudbury,
Suffolk, CO10 2WA.
Tel: 01787 881165
Fax: 01787 313995
Email: hsebooks@prolog.uk.com http://www.hsebooks.com

Many of the free publications can also be downloaded from the HSE Website: http://www.hse.gov.uk

There are three methods of payment currently available from HSE Books:
1. Via the post, bank cheques/ postal orders made payable to HSE Books
2. Via the telephone, American Express, Master Card or Visa
3. Approved credit account customers may use the Banks Automated
Clearing System. However, new accounts are not being set up.

Further guidance on lighting can be obtained from the following organisation:

CIBSE (Chartered Institute of Building Services Engineers)
22 Balham High Road
London
SW12 9BS
Telephone: 0208 675 5211
Website: www.cibse.org

As an information service we are only able to provide information that is published in HSE regulations or associated guidance.

For advice/ interpretation on the above subject you will need to speak to your enforcing authority for health and safety.

The enforcing office which covers your workplace is dependent on the nature
of the activities carried out at that workplace.

The HSE enforce over premises such as factories, building sites, mines, farms, fairgrounds, quarries, railways, chemical plant, offshore and nuclear installations, schools and hospitals.

A map/list of all HSE regions is available on the web at:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/maps/index.htm

The Environmental Health Department of the Local Authority enforce over premises such as retailing, some warehouses, most offices, hotels and catering, sports, leisure, consumer services and places of worship.

The telephone number for the Environmental Health Department of the Local Authority should be available from your local telephone directory.

Alternatively, the details of all local authorities can be found via the A-Z of local authorities facility of the following website: www.direct.gov.uk

I hope this helps, but if you require further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact this address again or telephone HSE Infoline on 08453 450055.

Yours sincerely


Rachel Foster

HSE Infoline

HSE is committed to maintaining your personal information in a manner that meets the requirements of the Data Protection Act 1998.

Sometimes, we may need to pass your details to another government department or public body so that they can help you with your enquiry.


I think I'm sorry I ever asked.......

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#146181 - 11/11/06 10:09 AM Re: Fluoros in sales area -- Diffusers/guards needed?
TeesdaleSparkUK Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/05
Posts: 20
Loc: England
It looks like that is the standard HSE reply.

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#146182 - 11/11/06 11:10 AM Re: Fluoros in sales area -- Diffusers/guards needed?
geoff in UK Offline
Member

Registered: 12/30/02
Posts: 172
Loc: UK
No, it doesn't say "we don't know". It says "Its up to you to make the judgement, (and if necessary be prepared to justify it)".

That's the way the system works now, and there is no way (I believe) that HSE will make the specific recommendation you hoped for, as that could then be used in law to absolve you of the reponsibility of that judgement.

This is why we now see "risk assessment" used to justify unreasonably prohibitive rules, often by local councils, etc, to eliminate the most minimal of dangers.
As example, during the football finals my local council prohibited the attachment of flags to lampposts near a local pub "because of the danger they could become detached and cause an accident by obscuring the vision of a cyclist or motor-bike rider". Obviously a severe danger that !!

Having said that my only meeting, in an industrial environment, with an HSE inspector allowed a normal and sensible exchange of opinions, and their advice was completely reasonable. The responsibility for subsequent events however remained firmly mine.

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#146183 - 11/11/06 11:14 PM Re: Fluoros in sales area -- Diffusers/guards needed?
Hutch Offline
Member

Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 383
Loc: South Oxfordshire, UK
Aussie240 said …
 Quote:
I've seen plenty of examples where the whole fluoro fitting is held up with nothing more than the wiring to it because the fixing hardware has failed. A good example here is self tappers straight into Gyprock or the wrong size Rawl plugs/screws/hole size for brick/concrete installations. With a twin 40W fitting there's just too much weight to get away with such bodges.


Interesting that you should mention such fittings hanging by the wires only. It reminded me of a dramatic incident many years ago; I am sat at my desk at work on the phone to my soon-to-be father-in-law discussing some of the finer details of my forthcoming marriage to his daughter.

The crash was unbelievable as the whole two tube, 48” fitting hit my desk from a height of about 4 metres. Metal, plastic and pieces of fluorescent tube shot everywhere, and my immediate choice of inappropriate expletives – calling upon divine entities and their offspring – following this huge explosion required some explanation to the church-going man at the other end of the telephone. It wasn’t helped by the room going dark at the same time!

It turned out that in this case, the whole fitting instead of being secured to the concrete ceiling had merely been ‘attached’ using self-tapping screws to the two M5 brass, threaded sockets in the plastic ceiling box – normal design load significantly less than one 2 x 48” fitting. The attached wiring never stood a chance in arresting the decent of this beast.

Needless to say, its replacement involved the use of a masonry bit and suitable plugs and after extensive repair the original found its way into my garage where having secured it properly to the joists many years ago, I suspect it continues to provide sterling service.

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