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#143955 - 09/30/05 03:59 AM Danish and Israeli plugs
C-H Offline

Member

Registered: 09/17/02
Posts: 1508
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
There are rumours out regarding the plugs and sockets in Denmark and Israel.

---- Denmark ---
The Danish plug and socket system will be discontinued, beginning next year.

There are safety concerns regarding this. To an outsiders suprise, it is not that the earth pin is lost but that the fit of the Danish two-pin plug is such that it will disintegrate when removed from a shucko socket. (My theory is that the problem is that the pins are sleeved further than on sleeved two pin contour plugs. The "edge" in the pin surface therefore sticks to the socket cover in the Schuko. The europlug has thinner pins and doesn't suffer from this.)

And the earthing? Doesn't matter. The de-facto standard plug is already the schuko.

--- Israel ---

There is some information that the Israelis are working on a round pin design to replace their current standard with flattened pins. As I understand it, they will go for two standards: Something in the style of the European plugs for normal use and a version of the 15A BS546 standard for special uses. (To make it non-interchangeable)

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 09-30-2005).]

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#143956 - 09/30/05 09:01 AM Re: Danish and Israeli plugs
djk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 1269
Loc: Ireland
It would make a lot of sense to abandon both of those systems. They're fine in a totally isolated environment where people don't travel and, particularly in the case of Denmark (a small country within the EU) it must be very difficult to avoid appliances shipping with Schuko plugs.

If there's no advantage to the systems they shouldn't be kept.

As for the Italian system. It could be phased out rather easily by simply replacing the wide-spaced 16A italian plugs with schuko and introducing an Italian version of the schuko socket outlet that incorporates a receptical for the italian ground pin on the 10A plugs.

As for the UK and Ireland I'd advocate introducing a fused schuko socket outlet that fits BS plates. I'm sure there must be a practical work-around to allow the UK to keep its ring circuits yet use a more compatable plug / socket system.

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#143957 - 09/30/05 09:28 AM Re: Danish and Israeli plugs
chipmunk Offline
Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 142
Loc: Southampton, UK
With the freedom of travel these days this makes a lot of sense.

I wonder why Israel wants a non-interchangeable system at all? schuko is rated at 16A, so they wouldn't gain anything by using 15A BS546 plugs.

My thoughts on the UK system are thus:

The current ring system uses 2.5mm cable, therefore split the ring at the centre point, and convert to 2 x 16A radials, this would keep the same overall capacity but change the protection to 16A thus allowing normal schuko plugs to be used.

Fused connection units could be retained, I see no incompatability issues, other than the 'permanent load reducing circuit capacity' one, which has already been addressed by the IEE for the ring.

It shouldn't cost much more to do this as people will have the electrician there to replace the sockets anyway, possibly Consumer Unit manufacturers could come up with a twin breaker similar to some US panel manufacturers?

(edit to get more on topic and add a question)

[This message has been edited by chipmunk (edited 09-30-2005).]

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#143958 - 09/30/05 09:39 AM Re: Danish and Israeli plugs
djk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 1269
Loc: Ireland
A non interchangable optional system makes sense for things like UPS / Clean earth systems etc etc..

It's not fun when a cleaner plugs a 2000W vacuum cleaner into your UPS installation

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#143959 - 09/30/05 09:54 AM Re: Danish and Israeli plugs
chipmunk Offline
Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 142
Loc: Southampton, UK
 Quote:
A non interchangable optional system makes sense for things like UPS / Clean earth systems etc etc..


Ahh, for specialist use, similar to the old Walsall Gauge and MK T-Earth systems in the UK..

*Enlightenment dawns*

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#143960 - 09/30/05 02:02 PM Re: Danish and Israeli plugs
Texas_Ranger Offline
Member

Registered: 12/17/01
Posts: 2343
Loc: Vienna, Austria
 Quote:
s for the Italian system. It could be phased out rather easily by simply replacing the wide-spaced 16A italian plugs with schuko and introducing an Italian version of the schuko socket outlet that incorporates a receptical for the italian ground pin on the 10A plugs.

That's exactly what's silently happening! Only the Italians don't talk about it! In 1993 a house in Tuscany I used to visit frequently got electricity. All the surface-mount sockets would take both Italian 10A and Schuko plugs! Most Italian power strips do too, sometimes even 10A, 16A and Schuko. In 2001 I spent some time in Torino, where I lived at least half the stuff was plugged in using Schuko and adaptors or multi-function power strips. Adaptors are readily available at every supermarket, and I've seen several flush mount receptacles that either have a Schuko and a 10A/16A socket side by side or just a single Schuko receptacle on a standard Italian wall plate. So i guess the Italian system will eventually phase itself out.... Italian boxes are _huge_ compared to anything I've seen in Europe (both bigger and noticeably deeper than ours, let alone standard UK 2,5cm deep boxes), so there's plenty of room for fitting recessed sockets. Only the old 3 receptacles on single gang wall plate doesn't work any more.

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#143961 - 10/01/05 05:20 AM Re: Danish and Israeli plugs
pauluk Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/01
Posts: 7693
Loc: Norfolk, England
 Quote:
As for the UK and Ireland I'd advocate introducing a fused schuko socket outlet that fits BS plates.


It would probably be quite easy to incorporate a BS1362 fuse into a British version of the Schuko outlet, although it will come as no surprise to those of you who know my views about ring circuits that I'd much rather go with splitting into 16A radials instead.

Also, if non-fused Schukos were sold here for radial circuit use, how long would it be before we saw people putting these directly onto existing 30/32A ring circuits?

The only other problem I forsee is that Schukos for retrofitting into existing 1-inch deep boxes would probably need to have a fairly deep faceplate to accommodate the extra depth. I'm not sure how people who like flush-fitted devices would like that.




[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 10-01-2005).]

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#143962 - 10/01/05 07:35 AM Re: Danish and Israeli plugs
Texas_Ranger Offline
Member

Registered: 12/17/01
Posts: 2343
Loc: Vienna, Austria
Yup - a usual modern Schuko outlet is about 3cm deep from the wall surface. Certainly won't fit a 1" box. However, french sockets of equal construction are often much less deep.

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#143963 - 10/02/05 03:19 AM Re: Danish and Israeli plugs
djk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 1269
Loc: Ireland
they could be made flush at the edge and gently rise up to the edge of the socket. Giving you the same recess on a nice looking plate.

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#143964 - 10/02/05 03:37 AM Re: Danish and Israeli plugs
Texas_Ranger Offline
Member

Registered: 12/17/01
Posts: 2343
Loc: Vienna, Austria
That's exactly what the French sockets I described above are built like. Maybe the next time I'm at a Czech supermarket I can buy one and snap a picture. (Should get there some time the next weeks and they're dirt cheap, something like 2 Euro for a flush mount socket)

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