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#142800 - 03/03/05 04:38 AM All in the name of Electrical Supply
Trumpy Offline

Member

Registered: 07/05/02
Posts: 8540
Loc: SI,New Zealand
Wow!, them North Islanders really get worked up about nothing.
Especially when it's for the good of themselves and everyone else.
What I'm talking about (as Kiwi will be more than aware), is the plans for Transpower, the owners of the National HV Grid, to start on upgrading the existing 220kV sections of the system to 400kV.
The basic outline of the first part of the upgrade can be seen here .
However, this idea hasn't gone down all that well, as this story proves.
(Warning:Bad language on the protesters placard!, never saw it when posting the story)
The local media have been having a field day here with all of the protesting and other rubbish going on.
There have been calls, for the 400kV work to be all undergrounded, however, this is a lot easier said than done and the cost would be horrendous.
Even the Green party is in on the act, with this comment
Also, with the advent of Over-head reticulation being mentioned, all the Environmentalists are jumping up and down about the effects of the pylons on the landscape and the effects of the EMF's on people that will have to live near the lines.
(These are the same Environmentalists, that protested on the roof of a coal fired power station last week.)
To the south of Christchurch, (where Kiwi lives), there are 220kV O/H lines everywhere, no-ones worried about them too much, as long as the lights stay on.
Some people just need to get real!.

{Message edited to add warning}

[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 03-04-2005).]
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#142801 - 03/04/05 01:03 PM Re: All in the name of Electrical Supply
pauluk Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/01
Posts: 7693
Loc: Norfolk, England
I've had conversations with people here over underground vs. overhead transmission and distribution lines.


So many people think that all lines should be run underground so as not to spoil the scenery, but would they be prepared to pay for it in the form of greatly increased utility bills? They just don't realize how much more expensive underground is.

It's a similar thing with the protesters against windfarms. They object to them on aesthetic grounds, but don't want more conventional or nuclear power stations either, nor do they want to cut down on their ever-increasing electrical loads.



[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 03-04-2005).]

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#142802 - 03/04/05 11:42 PM Re: All in the name of Electrical Supply
Trumpy Offline

Member

Registered: 07/05/02
Posts: 8540
Loc: SI,New Zealand
Hi there Paul,
You are dead right in your above comments!.
It seems like everyone want's everything as long as it won't effect them personally or it won't cost them a cent.
IMHO, I don't think most people that are arguing about this whole thing, have any concept whatsoever about installing circuits of this size.
Most people seem to think it's like running a cable to your new Garage or the like.
This is 400,000 Volts we are talking about here and the depth of the trench would be something to be seen, because if it ain't deep enough, you can bet your bottom dollar some idiot is going to strike the thing, one way or the other.
Even the sub-marine DC cables in Cook Strait here get struck and pulled up by ship anchors every now and then and that's at sea.
There is a lot of talk about the hieght of the pylons (70m/200ft?), this is one of the things that I can't understand, people fail to see why lines like this are placed so high up in the air, it's to keep people away from them.
400kVAC has never been used here before and having said that, we don't even make cable for it here.
Our highest HVAC voltage is 220kV.
 Quote:
It's a similar thing with the protesters against windfarms. They object to them on aesthetic grounds, but don't want more conventional or nuclear power stations either, nor do they want to cut down on their ever-increasing electrical loads.

I couldn't agree more there, mate.
It's a no-win situation, really.
But I'll keep you guys posted on this one, surely common-sense has to prevail here?.
_________________________
Let's face it, these days if you're not young, you're old - Red Green grin

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#142803 - 03/05/05 12:42 PM Re: All in the name of Electrical Supply
pauluk Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/01
Posts: 7693
Loc: Norfolk, England
 Quote:
This is 400,000 Volts we are talking about here and the depth of the trench would be something to be seen,

Just wrap a couple more turns of insulation tape around it and cover it over! Or pull it through a big garden hose like that 2.5 T&E they ran to the shed! Sheesh, you tech people are always trying to make a big deal out of these things.

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#142804 - 03/06/05 04:13 AM Re: All in the name of Electrical Supply
Trumpy Offline

Member

Registered: 07/05/02
Posts: 8540
Loc: SI,New Zealand
OK Paul,
I've put a quote in for NZ$2670 for the whole job.
Problem solved!.
We are using #8 fencing wire, insulated with garden hose, for the whole run.
You bring the shovel, I'll bring the beer.
If you dig fast enough we should have the work done by, umm, 2017.

[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 03-06-2005).]
_________________________
Let's face it, these days if you're not young, you're old - Red Green grin

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#142805 - 03/09/05 01:11 PM Re: All in the name of Electrical Supply
djk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 1269
Loc: Ireland
People have no idea how big these cables really are. When they're up on pylons they don't look a whole lot bigger than the cable going into the back of your washing machine.

We've had similar protests here where vitally needed overhead 220kV lines were held up around Cork Harbour for similar reasons. The ESB didn't want to run them subsea under the harbour as there was a very serious risk of anchor damage due to the busy nature of the harbour and estuary. There was also a very signifigant increase in cost involved even for this relatively short crossing.

400kV's been used here for quite a while but only on 2 lines that connect a very large coal-fired powerstation on the west coast to the greater Dublin area on the east coast. However, they terminate some 60 miles outside Dublin and feed into the local 220kV and 110kV infrastructure.

The original 1920s grid was 110kV and 220kV was introduced as demand went up. 400kV only arrived in the 1970s.

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#142806 - 03/09/05 11:58 PM Re: All in the name of Electrical Supply
kiwi Offline
Member

Registered: 12/04/04
Posts: 347
Loc: christchurch new zealand
Aucklanders will whinge about anything though Trumpy. Thats why we don't live there ! ! They whinged when their underground feeder failed in the 2000 CBD blackout. And now they'll whinge when offered an overhead solution.

They want hot smoked chicken paninis and lattes without the pylons. Take pity on them, they don't understand.

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#142807 - 03/11/05 11:21 AM Re: All in the name of Electrical Supply
djk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 1269
Loc: Ireland
Kiwi, it's the NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard) problem.

We have a situation in Ireland where waste costs have spiraled out of all control because no one wants landfills or incineration of municipal waste BUT at the same time no one wants to reduce or recycle either.

And very few people think of where the power to heat all those lattes comes from!



[This message has been edited by djk (edited 03-11-2005).]

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#142808 - 03/16/05 01:29 AM Re: All in the name of Electrical Supply
Trumpy Offline

Member

Registered: 07/05/02
Posts: 8540
Loc: SI,New Zealand
I'm pretty peeved at the moment.
There was an expert on the "Paul Holmes" show from Canada that was bought over here to comment on the 400kV lines and thier safety.
When she didn't say what Mr Holmes wanted her to, he would just cut her off.
He then swapped to an OB of one of his "reporters" using an "expert" with a Gauss meter, of what type we'll never know or even if the thing was properly calibrated.
When in this house with 2 circuit 220kV going right over the roof, did give a reading of 33 mG, Mr Holmes asked if this was dangerous, the Canadian expert said No, she was cut off again.
I personally think that Mr Holmes likes to have people that enforce his "Sensationalised" form of the news.
More to the point, his brand of pseudo-science, is doing more harm than good.
Considering that there was a TV aerial in the same field, and it was not being affected, according to the TV picture in the lounge, speaks volumes.
But Mr Holmes didn't ask anyone in NZ to come on his programme, instead he used "experts" from Australia and the US, who would say what Mr Holmes would like, if you paid them enough.
Cheque-book journalism all over again.
_________________________
Let's face it, these days if you're not young, you're old - Red Green grin

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#142809 - 03/16/05 07:58 AM Re: All in the name of Electrical Supply
djk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 1269
Loc: Ireland
Trumpy,

It's very easy to whip up hysteria around any issue with the word "radiation" in it.

The question that I always raise is why isn't there a massively increased incidence of cancer in people who work with powerlines and large transformers on a daily basis?

Also, loads of domestic appliences throw out pretty serious EM fields. CRT Televisions in particular, and we spend a signifigant percentage of our lives happily sitting directly in front of these machines and have done for quite a few decades at this stage.

If you take the hysterical anti EM argument to its logical conclusion tvs, electric induction motors, household cabling, mobile phones, radios, tv transmitters etc should all be banned immediately.

It's completely crazy..

Also, what's the big deal about 400kV ? NZ is criss crossed with 220kV and 110kV ? lines that are closer to the ground and prob. much running with relatively high loading and throwing out equally or even larger EM fields in more populatated areas and have been for many many years.

400kV is VERY common elsewhere in the world in countries with larger populations.

You would think having spent several weeks in the darkages after the power line melt down that Aucklanders would have some appreciation that this kind of infrastructure is necessary for modern life!

We've had similar hysteria around HV lines but more particularly about ANY type of transmitter.. UHF TV, FM, GSM Mobile phone, emergency service radio systems etc.

There was even an incident of criminal damage to a mobile phone tower which took several networks off the air in a wide area as it interfered with point-to-point microwave links!

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 03-16-2005).]

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