The Electrical Contractor Network

ECN Electrical Forum
Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals

Books, Tools and Test Equipment for Electrical and Construction Trades

Register Now!

Register Now!

We want your input!

Featured:
   

2017 NEC and Related
2017 NEC
Now Available!

   
Recent Posts
Industrail Control Panel bonding per 409.108
by sparkyinak
Today at 03:17 PM
Calling all Non-US members!! (Non-US only)
by aussie240
Yesterday at 02:39 AM
Photo Upload Tutorial
by DanK
12/06/16 11:35 PM
Sprinklered equipment 26-008
by bigpapa
12/02/16 04:24 PM
On Delay Relay with Auto Reset
by Potseal
12/01/16 09:59 AM
New in the Gallery:
12.5A through 0.75mm˛ flex (just out of curiosity)
Shout Box

Top Posters (30 Days)
gfretwell 13
HotLine1 9
sparkyinak 8
Texas_Ranger 8
Trumpy 6
Who's Online
0 registered (), 221 Guests and 7 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#141344 - 07/23/04 02:54 AM Part P
stevesloan Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 9
Loc: england
Hello Gentlemen,

Just a quick note to inform you that the new Part P of the Building regulations has finally been published and is available to look at on www.odpm.gov.uk/building-regulations came out yesterday)

A little light reading for us all!

Kind regards

Steve

{ Edited for link -- Paul }

[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 07-25-2004).]

Top
Test Equipment:

Large Selection of Test Equipment For Electrical, HVAC, Test & Measurement
Large Selection of Test Equipment For Electrical, HVAC, Test & Measurement

#141345 - 07/23/04 01:33 PM Re: Part P
pauluk Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/01
Posts: 7693
Loc: Norfolk, England
Steve's link seems to have gone a little haywire.

Try this one (PDF document, about 1.4MB):

Approved Part P

Top
#141346 - 07/23/04 03:13 PM Re: Part P
teach Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/04
Posts: 15
Loc: UK
Hi everyone...
Ive just read this p document and am happy with it appart from this passage. On page 7 under "general" it states....
A way of satisfying the fundamental principles would be to follow: a. The technical rules described in the body of BS7671:2001,or an equivalent standard approved by a member of the EEA.....
My question is this, who are the EEA and what are their standard?
Finally I have read a lot of negative things on here about part p. I wonder how anyone would complain when it attempts to:
1. Deter DIY
2. Outlaw unlicenced/diluted electricians.
3. By removing the above competition, prices must soar.
I know you may think "Nope it will not work, because of a, b, and c", but it cant stay as it is, surely not. Thanks for letting me rant!!

Top
#141347 - 07/24/04 07:24 AM Re: Part P
pauluk Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/01
Posts: 7693
Loc: Norfolk, England
EEA = European Economic Area, which is the previously 15, now 25 European Union countries plus a few other places which are not part of the EU, such as Norway.

In other words, you can follow BS7671/IEE Regs., or wire to French standards, German standards, or now even Latvian standards if you wish!

This is something which I queried a while back. If part P of the building regs. is going to be enforced by some local council inspector, is he really going to know 25+ sets of wiring rules, even though the national standards may have been moving closer together in recent years?

Besides, if the rules are going to allow standards as diverse as Greek and Estonian, then why not the American NEC, Australian, and a few others as well?

And I'm sorry to argue this point yet again, but as far as DIY work within an existing house is concerned, I don't think it will make a scrap of difference. Who really believes that any DIY homeowner who wants to add a light or a couple of sockets is going to notify their local council?

Top
#141348 - 07/25/04 05:19 AM Re: Part P
pauluk Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/01
Posts: 7693
Loc: Norfolk, England
I sat down yesterday and read right through the document. There are still some things there which I would query, and I have to admit to being even more confused about what the law will actually be.

Much of the preamble to this document seems to be written in rather wide-ranging terms rather than saying anything specific.

Start with the part P extract on page 5:
 Quote:
PART P ELECTRICAL SAFETY
Design, installation, inspection and testing

P1. Reasonable provision shall be made in the design, installation, inspecting and testing of electrical installations in order to protect persons from fire or injury.

Provision of information

P2.
Sufficient information shall be provided so that persons wishing to operate, maintain or alter an electrical installation can do so with reasonable safety.


Is that it? Where is the reference to any remaining wording in the building regulations? I don't mean the rest of the waffle from the "Office of the Deputy Prime Minister," I mean actual, hard, law.

I don't see anything here which effectively says something like "Installations shall comply with BS7671 (IEE Wiring Regulations)."

Reading on a little further, the language continues to be equally non-specific.

Page 7:
 Quote:

Performance.

0.1
In the Secretary of State's view, the requirements will be met by adherence to the 'Fundamental Principles' for achieving safety given in BS7671 : 2001 chapter 13.

To achieve these erequirements electrical installations must be:

a. designed and installed to provide appropriate protection against mechanical and thermal damage, and so that they do not present electric shock and fire hazards to people;

b. suitably inspected and tested to verify that they meet the relevant equipment and installation standards.

Frankly, I don't give a d*** what the Secretary of State's view is on the matter. If it's not in the law, it's not enforcable. Period.

I'd be willing to bet that the Secretary of State's electrical knowledge extends about as far as wiring a plug or changing a light bulb anyway.

Carry on to the next section:
 Quote:
General

0.2
A way of satisfying the fundamental principles would be to follow:

a. the technical rules described in the body of BS7671 : 2001, or an equivalent standard approved by a member of the EEA that includes issuing an electrical installation certificate to the person ordering the work; and

b. guidance given in installation manuals that are consistent with BS7671 : 2001, such as

i) The IEE (Institution of Electrical Engineers) On-Site Guide;

ii) The series of IEE publications, Guidance Notes Nos. 1 to 7

Look at the wording. It doesn't say "Compliance with these fundamental principles shall be demonstrated by following...."

It says "A way of satisfying the fundamental principles would be to follow......" which implies that other ways of satisfying these fundamental principles would be equally acceptable.

The reference to other EEA-approved standards seems to confirm this, but again, if the only actual legal requirement is to comply with these rather broad fundamental principles, then I could wire my house to American standards, Australian standards, or any other system I care to mention.

The whole thing seems to be very vague. Or am I missing something?



[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 07-25-2004).]

Top
#141349 - 07/25/04 08:59 AM Re: Part P
chipmunk Offline
Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 142
Loc: Southampton, UK
Paul, surely this is a good thing? (being able to wire to the NEC would mean no ring circuits )

Top
#141350 - 07/25/04 11:04 AM Re: Part P
uksparky Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 199
Loc: UK
 Quote:
The whole thing seems to be very vague. Or am I missing something?


No, you are not missing anything. I have read it as well.

Frankly it is typical of this Government's attitude; as long as it looks good on paper it will fool people into thinking it is good. A [reasonably] detailed look into anything this shower has introduced since '97 will soon make one realise how toothless 90% of it is.

This Part P intro is a bloody shambles. It will be almost impossible to police effectively in terms of covering those areas that need covering, and will be shot full of corner-cutters and it'll-be-ok halfwits.

I don't suppose the Sec of State's knowledge extends beyond turning a light on... Even then he would have to force legislation through Parliament to have all switches checked for UK manufacture and configuration before issuing them with an ID card that allows them to operate in the UK on behalf of a 'law-abiding' UK citizen. Maybe at that point he might use the switch - if his guide dog hasn't already turned the light on for him!

I suspect that we will end up with a load of individually interpretable legislation that will be enforced as and when it suits.

...rant over.
_________________________
If hindsight were foresight, we'd all be millionaires!

Top
#141351 - 07/25/04 11:46 AM Re: Part P
pauluk Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/01
Posts: 7693
Loc: Norfolk, England
 Quote:
before issuing them with an ID card that allows them to operate in the UK on behalf of a 'law-abiding' UK citizen.

LOL!

Don't even get me started on that one! If he thinks I'm going to hand over even more money to this bunch of clowns (no offense Bozo! ) so he can issue me with a card that tells me who I am, he can think again.

(For non-Brits who are now totally confused, go here .

By the way, I just corrected Steve's original link at the top of the thread as I realized why it wasn't working (case sensitive!). Follow that link and you can see plenty more approved baloney (excuse me, approved documents) for various parts of the building regs.

Top
#141352 - 07/25/04 12:00 PM Re: Part P
pauluk Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/01
Posts: 7693
Loc: Norfolk, England
 Quote:
Paul, surely this is a good thing? (being able to wire to the NEC would mean no ring circuits

Yippee! Actually, considering the amount of 120V gear I have around here, installing a 240 to 120/240V transformer and rewiring my house to American standards wouldn't be such a bad idea! Don't let the ODPM know, will you?

By the way, why do all these government departments now have to put a sub-title under their names that sounds like some old Soviet-style propaganda?

"Office of the Deputy Prime Minister -- Creating sustainable communities."

"Home Office -- Building a safe, just and tolerant society."

Yeah, right.....

Top
#141353 - 07/25/04 12:47 PM Re: Part P
uksparky Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 199
Loc: UK
LMAO @ Paul!!

I guess they need to remind us why they exist from time to time - coz they sure as hell don't show their existence!

As you so rightly say... "Yeah...RIGHT"!
_________________________
If hindsight were foresight, we'd all be millionaires!

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >



ECN Electrical Forums - sponsored by Electrical Contractor Network - Electrical and Code Related Discussion for Electrical Contractors, Electricians, Inspectors, Instructors, Engineers and other related Professionals