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#138247 - 08/26/03 01:08 PM Opinions on ceiling light fitting problem with short wires-sink the rose?
mkdaiv Offline
Junior Member
Registered: 08/26/03
Posts: 8
Loc: Milton Keynes, Bucks, England
Hi

I am after others views on what I did with a new ceiling light fitting, as I have been met with mixed views and basically had local guys try to scare me into using their services.

By the way, I am in the UK, and the lighting system is a Loop (4 earths, live, neutral, 3 black)) system.

Basically, I bought a new fitting which should sit flush with the ceiling. Well, when I got round to preparing to put it up, it became obvious that the rose (from which a cable was fed through) would be an obstruction, so I did a bit of research on the net, and found that the most common practice is to get cable connectors, and replace the rose with this method of wiring. The problem I came into was that the wires have been cut VERY short, and therefore proving extremely difficult to get the connections secure. So to cut to the chase, I thought of enlarging the hole in the ceiling, and just pushing the rose through the hole (the light fitting is quite large and would conceal any hole).

As I see it, all the wiring is right, and contained within its own unit, with no chance of being moved or disturbed, and to describe it as basically as possible, I am only changing the 'end' of what fitting/cable was already there (hanging down from the ceiling), because the rest of the new light design is purely cosmetic, and therefore unaffective to the actual wiring of the unit.

And lastly, assuming that placing a rose inside the ceiling (they do it with junction boxes, right?) is acceptable and safe, I was wondering, as the rose has all the earth wires connected to it, do I still need to fit an earth cable onto the light fitting itself?

Many thanks in advance for your opinions and advice!


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 09-01-2003).]
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#138248 - 08/26/03 03:28 PM Re: Opinions on ceiling light fitting problem with short wires-sink the rose?
Bill Addiss Offline
Member
Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 3875
Loc: NY, USA
Maybe someone can give you a opinion on your situation, but I would like to stress that questions of a DIY nature are beyond the scope of this Forum.

Bill Addiss
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#138249 - 08/26/03 04:59 PM Re: Opinions on ceiling light fitting problem with short wires-sink the rose?
pauluk Offline
Member
Registered: 08/11/01
Posts: 7520
Loc: Norfolk, England
What you seem to be proposing isn't really to be recommended.

The best solution to this problem would be to get into the void above the ceiling and install a proper junction box in place of the existing ceiling rose. Then all you need is to connect from that box to your new light fitting.

You should certainly run an earth wire to the new light fitting, and if it is a type with a metal back plate, then it should have a terminal for the earth wire which connects to that metalwork.

IEE Wiring Regs. have required an earth terminal at all lighting points since 1966.
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#138250 - 08/26/03 11:38 PM Re: Opinions on ceiling light fitting problem with short wires-sink the rose?
mkdaiv Offline
Junior Member
Registered: 08/26/03
Posts: 8
Loc: Milton Keynes, Bucks, England
PaulUK - thanks for your words. After speaking to a few people I am phoning an elctrician up today, as although I am sure what I have done is fine, I have doubts in the back of my mind, so its better to be safe than sorry imo.
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#138251 - 08/27/03 02:30 AM Re: Opinions on ceiling light fitting problem with short wires-sink the rose?
lyledunn Offline
Member
Registered: 06/30/02
Posts: 159
Loc: N.Ireland
Payl,
JB is not always an option. If placing it in the ceiling void renders it inaccessible, then it would contravene UK wiring regulations.
The problem that the chap faces is often solved, as he says, by stuffing open type pvc connectors up through the small aperture in the ceiling. This is unacceptable and your method would be the better option.
However, Klik (I think) manufacture a replacement rose with a suspension bar which might do the trick.
In any event,the lighting manufacturers should take a lead in ensuring that their fittings can be easily connected to the fixed wiring. Unfortunately this does not appear to be the case.
_________________________
regards

lyle dunn
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#138252 - 08/27/03 09:17 AM Re: Opinions on ceiling light fitting problem with short wires-sink the rose?
pauluk Offline
Member
Registered: 08/11/01
Posts: 7520
Loc: Norfolk, England
Light fixtures seems to be a particular area where wiring is poor in this country. I've seen the "choc-block shoved up through the ceiling" method far too many times.

I was assuming that a j-box would be accessible in the void in a domestic situation, either by virtue of it being in the attic or being readily accessible from above by simply lifting a floorboard.-
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#138253 - 08/28/03 01:20 AM Re: Opinions on ceiling light fitting problem with short wires-sink the rose?
mkdaiv Offline
Junior Member
Registered: 08/26/03
Posts: 8
Loc: Milton Keynes, Bucks, England
well, the electrician came, and charged me £80 in total to do it properly.

I know everybody 'should'get a receipt (which I have got) but I read somewhere about 'Major Work Certificte' and 'Minor Work Certificate'. Should I have gotten something like this as well as the receipt (Which says what he did)?

What I find strange is that people say about that I shouldnt have put a rose 'inside' the ceiling, but thinking about junction boxes, a rose is wired the same, so what is the difference? Surely a cosmetic thing only, as the rose is a 'visible' junction box (in theory).

Just a last bit of info - when I put the rose into the ceiling, it was as you would see it normally - encased with a cord coming from it to connect to the bulb socket, only insted of being screwed onto the ceiling, I widened the hole, and pushed the rose through.

Oh well, you live and learn. Many thanks for your comments. I am sure my 'unique' ideas/methods and desire to understand this crazy electric stuff will bring me back here very soon.

Again, thanks!



[This message has been edited by mkdaiv (edited 08-28-2003).]
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#138254 - 08/28/03 04:39 AM Re: Opinions on ceiling light fitting problem with short wires-sink the rose?
pauluk Offline
Member
Registered: 08/11/01
Posts: 7520
Loc: Norfolk, England
Quote:
, the electrician came, and charged me £80 in total to do it properly.

Hmm... Looks like it's time for me to consider increasing my rates!

Glad you got it sorted out properly.
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#138255 - 08/28/03 02:33 PM Re: Opinions on ceiling light fitting problem with short wires-sink the rose?
PaulCornwall Offline
Member
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 112
Loc: England
yeah me too!! sounds like you live in London???

your right there isn't much differance between a rose and a joint box.. but it's all about doing the job right.
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#138256 - 08/28/03 03:16 PM Re: Opinions on ceiling light fitting problem with short wires-sink the rose?
pauluk Offline
Member
Registered: 08/11/01
Posts: 7520
Loc: Norfolk, England
Profile says Milton Keynes.

America has Minnesota -- Land of 10,000 Lakes.

We have Milton Keynes, city of 10,000 roundabouts!

(For our American friends, roundabout = traffic circle.)
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