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#134102 - 10/25/02 12:10 AM Schema, Drawings, Plans,Forms
Belgian Offline
Member

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 177
Loc: antwerp
What type of plans, schemas, drawings, tables or forms (of the installation) do you need in your country to activate a new electrical installation?

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#134103 - 10/25/02 01:25 PM Re: Schema, Drawings, Plans,Forms
pauluk Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/01
Posts: 7693
Loc: Norfolk, England
I assume you mean paperwork needed before the power company will connect a new service.

As far as England is concerned, practically no paperwork is needed at all. The last new service I installed the PoCo just sent a completion form which I signed and dated. It's basically just a self-certification that whoever was responsible for the wiring is saying that it is safe to connect. There's no requirement for the person signing to have any qualifications whatsoever, no checks or anything like that.

The same procedure applied with a different utility company a few years ago. In one case they installed a PoCo-owned disconnect before barely any wiring was in place. I just opened it up and made the connections and then sent the form in. Nobody ever came out and even looked at it.

Years ago it used to be the case that the engineer would at least carry out a few basic tests before connecting -- megger, earth continuity etc. These days they seem to take the view that once it leaves the meter they really don't care what happens.

I'm not saying that if the guy saw something so blatantly dangerous that he'd still connect anyway, but they're certainly not as careful as they once were.



[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 10-25-2002).]

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#134104 - 10/25/02 02:22 PM Re: Schema, Drawings, Plans,Forms
Texas_Ranger Offline
Member

Registered: 12/17/01
Posts: 2343
Loc: Vienna, Austria
Here in Austria we just had meter relocation with terrible old wiring hooked up to the new meter feeder and panel. The electrician told us to cover up the most obvious signs of old/unfinished work (put some plaster over the old wires) and made all the connections at the meter. Then he signed a paper stating everything was ok and applied for hookup. In fact we had Power immediately, but some time after a guy from the PoCo came and put the seals on the meter, without us even noticing this (meter is located in the stairway).

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#134105 - 10/26/02 05:10 AM Re: Schema, Drawings, Plans,Forms
David UK Offline
Member

Registered: 10/03/02
Posts: 134
Loc: Inverness, Scotland
I can only speak for my own area.
Our local power supplier Scottish Hydro Electric, now known as Scottish & Southern Energy for the power distribution side, have a 4 page form you are required to fill in.
In this form you have to provide installation loading details, number of rooms & any special power requirements, eg. machinery, lifts, heating etc.
If you require a new supply for a new building you also have to include site plans.
Details of the electrical contractor have also got to be provided. Since earlier this year there is a requirement for the electrical contractor to be SELECT / ECA or NICEIC registered, otherwise there is a £40 fee for checking the wiring, with additional fees if it is unsatisfactory 1st time.
Registered contractors, like myself, self certify & connect to the meter or isolator ourselves.
All new single phase supplies in this area utilize meters with an integral isolator switch, which allow contractors access to the load terminals of the meter.

NICEIC = National Inspection Council for Electrical Installation Contracting.
SELECT = Electrical Contractors' Association of Scotland.
ECA = Electrical Contractors' Association (England, Wales & N. Ireland)

I have a copy of the Application for Electricity Connection, which I will try to get posted, it is however a year old & outdated.

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#134106 - 10/26/02 07:06 AM Re: Schema, Drawings, Plans,Forms
pauluk Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/01
Posts: 7693
Loc: Norfolk, England
I should have mentioned that there are separate forms when applying for a new service -- Pretty much as David has described for Scotland in that the PoCo requests a sketch of where the service is to be located and requests details of anticipated load (practically all new residential services are 100A single-phase, unless the load is very high).

Interesting about the integral isolator David referred to. I've yet to see anything like that south of the Border. The one I mentioned above was just a separate 100A DP isolator installed next to the meter by the PoCo (in this case it was East Midlands Electricity). Would you believe that they actually put a seal on the cover for the load-side terminals? Can't think why as their instructions then specifically stated to cut the seal and make your own connections.

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#134107 - 10/26/02 03:14 PM Re: Schema, Drawings, Plans,Forms
pauluk Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/01
Posts: 7693
Loc: Norfolk, England
Received from DavidUK:






 Quote:
This form is around a year old & now outdated. The supply & distribution side is now known as Scottish & Southern Energy, isn't electricity deregulation great, not! Locals & company employees still refer to the company as "Hydro Electric".
I don't have a copy of the new form, as they get sent in to S&S, but they have some changes including space for the electrical contractors' SELECT or NICEIC registration number.

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#134108 - 10/26/02 04:10 PM Re: Schema, Drawings, Plans,Forms
Belgian Offline
Member

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 177
Loc: antwerp
Sorry that I didn't mention the requirements here, since I have posted this topic.
Here we are required for all new installations and major renovations to have a independant inspection (there are several such organisation in Belgium). You have to give them a plan of the house and a sketch representing the wiring. I will send Paul a copy so that he can post it here.
They do different tests including the earth impendancy (this is important since we have a TT system) and general check ups of the wiring. If everything's ok they then seal the main GFI and give you a attest with which you can go to the PoCo.

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#134109 - 10/27/02 09:45 AM Re: Schema, Drawings, Plans,Forms
pauluk Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/01
Posts: 7693
Loc: Norfolk, England
Posted for Belgian, wiring plans for (surprise!) a Belgian house:

[img]http://www.members.aol.com/pbc1966be/huisplan.bmp[/img]

[img]http://www.members.aol.com/pbc1966be/huis-2.bmp[/img]

[img]http://www.members.aol.com/pbc1966be/huis-1.bmp[/img]



[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 10-27-2002).]

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#134110 - 10/27/02 10:02 AM Re: Schema, Drawings, Plans,Forms
pauluk Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/01
Posts: 7693
Loc: Norfolk, England
Belgian,
Thanks for sending the plans. We'll now inundate you with about a hundred questions!

I see that you have a washing machine and dryer in the bathroom (I don't know any Flemish, so I'm guessing that's what Wasmach and Droogkast are on circuits K and L). Is this a common location? I've seen such an arrangement elsewhere in Europe, but it's quite rare in the U.K.

All your branch breakers (except cct. N) are marked as 2-pole. Is it normal to open the neutral on branch ciruits there now? I heard that this is now the norm in France.

The bathroom water heater appears to be the only 3-phase load, and from the 4 x 2.5mm designation on the cable and the 3-pole MCB, I take it that this has delta-connected 380V elements. Correct?

It seems that your PoCo really wants a lot of details before they'll connect. One other point I noticed though: The diagram gives full details of which outlets are on which branch circuits, but there's no indication of which phase serves each circuit. Are they not too bothered about balancing the load, or is that the one thing they leave to the discretion of the electrician?

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#134111 - 10/27/02 12:45 PM Re: Schema, Drawings, Plans,Forms
Belgian Offline
Member

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 177
Loc: antwerp
Paul,
>Thanks for sending the plans. We'll now inundate you with about a hundred questions!

I'll try my best to answer them correctly.

>I see that you have a washing machine and dryer in the bathroom (I don't know any Flemish, so I'm guessing that's what Wasmach and Droogkast are on circuits K and L). Is this a common location?

Yes, it is fairly common especially in flats. Every circuit in bathrooms are obliged to be on a GFI 30mA.

>All your branch breakers (except cct. N) are marked as 2-pole. Is it normal to open the neutral on branch ciruits there now? I heard that this is now the norm in France.

Yes, it is not only normal, but it's required by our code that ALL breakers cut the Neutral as well. The reason being that we have here still older systems which are 110/220V where the neutral is not used. We are therefore working with 2 fases per circuit and no neutral. So as not to differentiate between the different systems our code made a general regulation that all breakers cut the 2 poles. Another reason can be b/c we can still get electric shocks with the neutral here, since our N is only grounded in the scondry part of the transfo and not all along the way as in Britain. The reason being, that we are working with a TT system. We can therefore have a big enough impendancy between the neutral and the earth to eventually get a electrical shock.

>The bathroom water heater appears to be the only 3-phase load, and from the 4 x 2.5mm designation on the cable and the 3-pole MCB, I take it that this has delta-connected 380V elements. Correct?

Yes, correct, (400V) but it's not always the case. Actually normally our boilers are on 230V. This one is an exception.

>It seems that your PoCo really wants a lot of details before they'll connect.

Well, this is not for our PoCo that we do this. This is required by our code and we have a independat inspector who comes to controll the installation. The PoCo is not allowed according to our code to connect without the seal of the independant Inspoection firm.

>One other point I noticed though: The diagram gives full details of which outlets are on which branch circuits, but there's no indication of which phase serves each circuit. Are they not too bothered about balancing the load, or is that the one thing they leave to the discretion of the electrician?

True, our diagrams don't take this into account. The PoCo, however does mind and that's why the PoCo gives only a phase and a neutral per residency in new installations, so that they give number 1 phase and N to to the first residency. the next residency gets number 2 and N and so on. Like this it is equally balanced. It is possible to get 3P and N for one residency only after you have a reasonable explanation and at additional costs. Then, yes, the balancing is left to the discretion of the electrician.

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