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#13378 - 09/02/02 02:31 PM the 64K lighting question
sparky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5545
Most lights come with a small note stating that they are not to be connected to anything less than 90C wire, or pre-1985 wiring.

This is usually found on the bottom of the instructions after the packaging and pre-cast foam enclosure is totally destroyed.

Sometimes there is a 'consult an electrician' disclaimer to be also seen.

I would like advice on the installation of these in an older (pre-85') 3-story home.

caution please.... loaded Q.....

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#13379 - 09/02/02 02:49 PM Re: the 64K lighting question
Electricmanscott Offline
Member

Registered: 01/12/02
Posts: 1478
Loc: Holden, MA USA
This could get ugly. The real answer for me is I am not sure of the absolute legal, no loop holes, code compliant answer short of rewiring the circuit. I have heard of people pigtailing thhn to the wires and connecting them to the light. Honestly I just install the fixtures. It seems that all fixtures these days have this requirement and I would bet there are more installed "illegaly" than not. I believe this is more of a cover your ass from the manufacturers than any horrific safety hazard. Regardless of the wire type the fact is if it is not bright enough people will not hesitate to install the higest wattage bulb they can find. That to me would be far more of a hazard.

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#13380 - 09/02/02 03:05 PM Re: the 64K lighting question
ElectricAL Offline
Member

Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 615
Loc: Minneapolis, MN USA
It's a sticky situation at best.

I give my clients a fixture schedule that will include the caution that 90ºC wiring requirement will result in additional installation charges. They are left with the task of working through how to balance their aesthetics vs. cost vs. installation fee.
_________________________
Al Hildenbrand

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#13381 - 09/02/02 10:00 PM Re: the 64K lighting question
Bill Addiss Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 4196
Loc: NY, USA
This is a topic I have pondered (and pounded) a bit myself. I would assume that the warnings are the result of tests based on a worst-case scenario, such as insulation and hot attic above.

I would like to see the testing results based on various conditions such as encountered in spaces between floors where there is no insulation or other contributing heat (ex. Attic) factors. In this case perhaps 75C wiring would still be acceptable.

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 09-03-2002).]

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#13382 - 09/03/02 03:41 AM Re: the 64K lighting question
Electricmanscott Offline
Member

Registered: 01/12/02
Posts: 1478
Loc: Holden, MA USA
So guys what do you do? ElecticAL what would the addtional installation costs entail? I think this is a great topic an a common situation and i hope to see some honest answers.

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#13383 - 09/03/02 03:41 AM Re: the 64K lighting question
Redsy Offline
Member

Registered: 03/28/01
Posts: 2138
Loc: Bucks County PA
I believe this new temp. requirement is due to homeoners habit of installing 100 watt bulbs in fixtures limited to 60.
On a surface-mount ceiling fixture, the excess heat will rise into the outlet box and (over)heat the wiring.
I seem to notice that ceiling fixtures that have lampholders that aren't close to the ceiling don't have the warning.
As far as a solution...

I have purchased small rolls of high-temp. electrical insulation from McMaster-Carr.
It comes in different sizes to slide over the existing insulation of different conductors. It is inexpensive ($7.00 for 10')and I am more comfortable with using it than I am just installing the fixture on 60c. wire.

Go to mcmastercarr.com and search for 7453K86

[This message has been edited by Redsy (edited 09-03-2002).]

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#13384 - 09/03/02 03:47 AM Re: the 64K lighting question
sparky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5545
highlights from past disscussion include;

~installing a thermal cut-out from IC cans

~installing a ceramic cieling disc bettween fixture & cieling

~having a 'floating' JB within the cieling that makes older wire to 90C wire

~90C pigtails

~wattage specific bulb bases


remember...nearly all fixtures sold have this info, and are subject to a market primarily pre-85.

what's your advice?


Steve aka sparky

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#13385 - 09/03/02 07:02 AM Re: the 64K lighting question
ElectricAL Offline
Member

Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 615
Loc: Minneapolis, MN USA
E Scott,

The price per fixture is situational.

A chunck of my clients live in single family dwellings built prior to 90ºC wire. I am almost always working directly for the homeowner, so communication is direct. The wiring method at the fixture runs the gamit from most common as #1:
1. K&T
2. BX (pre-drain wire, rubber insulated cloth covered conductors)
3. Flex (T or TW)
4. Rigid (rubber insulated cloth covered conductors)
5. NM and NMB (the innercity "all-metal-code" relaxed and allowed NM in 1975)
The first conversation, the estimate, will bring out the changes of fixtures that the homeowner intends. I'll give my client the information about the importance of not overheating the wires, and let them marry that info with their aesthetics. The worst problem occurs when they have already purchased the fixtures, and they are on shoe string budgets. Like as not, these folks will not hire me, or will exchange the fixtures.

I'll be at most of the jobs a couple days, so, when there is the need to know the price ahead of time, I'll pull the old fixtures first, put up pigtails for temp light, take stock of the visible j-box wiring. At that point, I'm comfortable with giving a price, explaining that buried violations will add yet more. In my experience, the visible wiring in open mechanical areas is a great indicator of what I will find inside the wall, and will guide me in my cautions ahead-of-time to the homeowner.

My take on the 90ºC fixtures is that they will heat the supply wiring and all the other conductors that may be in the j-box. All the wires that terminate in or pass through the fixture j-box must be 90ºC.
_________________________
Al Hildenbrand

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#13386 - 09/03/02 08:52 AM Re: the 64K lighting question
Redsy Offline
Member

Registered: 03/28/01
Posts: 2138
Loc: Bucks County PA
Check this out. Let me have some opinions, please.
http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/108/html/0669.html

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#13387 - 09/03/02 01:16 PM Re: the 64K lighting question
Electricmanscott Offline
Member

Registered: 01/12/02
Posts: 1478
Loc: Holden, MA USA
no disrespect to anyone here nor was I the originator of this question BUT I still see no answers here as to what to do with this situation. For better or worse I told you how I handle this. I know there are many of you reading this. I am curious to see some honest answers. I do not believe that all you guys are rewiring houses in order to install replacement fixtures. I also do not believe it is neccesary. I have taken down more than my fair share of fixtures only to get a handful of overcooked insulation. I have come across just as many with insulation that is perfectly fine.

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