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#130869 - 03/25/01 06:31 PM As-Built plans, Design/Build Plans  
Scott35  Offline

Broom Pusher and
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,707
Anaheim, CA. USA
Hola all,

Have a quickee [Linked Image] for everyone.

How do you generate As-Builts sets for your clients [hand made, CAD, other]?
Do you include any revised calculations?
Do you supply clients with a proposal type plan set for Design/Build projects?
Do you think I have too much time on my hands [Linked Image]? [joke]

Looking forward to various replies.

Scott SET

Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!

Tools for Electricians:

#130870 - 03/25/01 09:43 PM Re: As-Built plans, Design/Build Plans  
sparky  Offline
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,303
Scott, being a simple guy, i have a simple program to create prints. I will do design/build,and include pertinent calc's like ASSC, pipe fill,ampacities, etc. I submit at job start, then alter as the job changes and have them on hand for any takers.

Mostly, i do this for larger renovations that change like the wind, or ongoing jobs where i need to catalog what has been done to recall any requested specifics.

( being that i can't usually remember what i ate for lunch most days...)

[Linked Image]

#130871 - 03/26/01 01:18 AM Re: As-Built plans, Design/Build Plans  
Scott35  Offline

Broom Pusher and
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,707
Anaheim, CA. USA

Thanks for the reply!!

What program do you use for your plans and do you get base plans for it from someone else - like an Architect - or do you just draw the base plan yourself?

I think it's absolutely great that you use a simple [should say friendly] program, rather than feel like you are _required_ to use a "Powerfull" [Linked Image] program.

If it works just the way you need it to, that's more power than any other application could ever have!! Only step up to another type of program / application when you feel the need to.
The old story of "If it's not broken, don't try to fix it" applies just the same to computer applications as it would to a car's transmission, or a paper towel dispenser.

One other thing - do you plot [print out on large format paper] your drawings?
If so, do you own a plotter, or large format printer [inkjet or laser] - or take a floppy to a reprographing / drafting shop to get plotted??

Personally, I have done As-Builts and other plan sets in many different ways over the years, ranging from just a simple set - to a large complex set with separately packaged calcs + other reference literature.

Done hand made and hand drawn sets, notes to hard copies, word processor type CAD, CAD using scanned pages and image editing software, and of course - actual CAD programs [Vector graphics, as opposed to Raster graphics].

These have been done for As-Builts, Shop sets, Design/Build sets, alterations sets, Engineered projects and the like.

Thanks once again for the message. Would like to see more on this subject.

Scott SET

Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!

#130872 - 03/26/01 08:11 AM Re: As-Built plans, Design/Build Plans  
sparky  Offline
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,303
customers love a pix with a contract, I do this in addition to written specifics. It seems to really impart the job well.

Before i has a computer, i would draft on 2'x 3' , then go to an architect's shop who could copy it on blueline. Having taken drafting in high school, this paid off as far as appearances.

This is key in the service industry, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck....

[Linked Image]

The problem with the latter being alterations had to go the same route for end result as-builts.
( which i'm always asking for myself, as they are useful)

time went by, i got a computer,this in itself has been quite the journey back up the bell curve for me.

The program i have is a $10 walmart special. It is very simplistic. I have other programs, but need to spend the time to learn them .
If i were to go back and forth with an architect or engineer, we would need to find a common program, which would be interesting and educational.
I almost had to oppourtunity to "network" via program with a distant client and local contractor, but the job fell thru.
I was more bummed out about the networking than the job!
A side note here would be that win 98' has a intergral shapes and lines sort of program that can be used to e-mail those with windows. As this is almost universal, i can shoot a pix to my distant customers, they love saving on the long-distance, and a pix is worth a thousand words ( more i say if you type 2 fingers like me)
[Linked Image]
I'm still evolving here, just getting my knuckels to stop draggin'....

[Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 03-26-2001).]

#130873 - 03/26/01 05:41 PM Re: As-Built plans, Design/Build Plans  
Scott35  Offline

Broom Pusher and
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,707
Anaheim, CA. USA

Nice profile in the reply.

Knuckles tend to continue dragging long after becoming very familiar to the machines! Mine are all covered with dirt from still being dragged on the ground [Linked Image] and expect them to continue in this fashion until death... at which point it's nearly impossible for me to learn anymore about any certain subject..

Now, with the normal sillyness aside, you might find the step from mechanically drawn [hard copy] type of drafting, to CAD, somewhat of an overwhelming problem where it relates to how things get done.
I had the same trouble - couldn't figure out how to draw a simple line, let alone the term[s] used to describe it!!
I automatically went to setup my page's "Limits" and figure a scale size relevant to page size, such as is done with physical hard copies [hand drawn plans].

The concepts are still the same - you create a base plan that is the overall template for each separate plan page. In hand drafting, we would draw a base template, then send it out and have blackline copies made on tracing vellums - which are used to draw the separate plans onto.
CAD uses the same approach, but instead of separate physical plan pages, all can be stacked one on top another, via a "Layering" technique. Layers can be turned on and off, so you could use one single plan [and file], turn off unneeded layers, print the necessary layers, and perform edits all on one plan.

I don't use this approach, but instead have individually saved plan page files that would be separate on the print set [like E.10, E.11 and such]. However, the method of using one single plan template, then "Attaching" other plans to it is still used.
In this matter, I only need to draw, edit or revise one plan page [file], and this will effect the remainders without me having to edit each individual page [file].

The major change you'll have when jumping over to CAD is that scale only becomes a factor when plotting [printing], so everything can be drawn 1 to 1.
Using a templated page [like one with set borders and a title block], would require separate templates sized to fit your plotter's paper size and an estimated overall scale [contradicts the previous 1 to 1 drawing, doesn't it??].

I use a D size plotter [actually, it's not a plotter - it's a wide format color inkjet printer]. The page sizes are 24"x36" - like the size you are familiar with using.

Don't let someone try and tell you that CAD drawings are any more accurate in dimensions, than hand drawn plans. This is absolutely untrue!! The scale accuracy for both is equal - when it's viewed on the monitor and computer that the plans were drawn from using CAD, or the original hand drawn page template. Neither one has any advantage at this state, as long as the draftsperson uses the correct values.
It's all depending on the accuracy of the original drawing, but that's the primary accuracy!

Secondary accuracy is almost never completely achieved with CAD drawings that get plotted from a different machine than the one that drew them! Also, file conversions and stuff like this make matters worse, to the point of errors in measurements exceeding 5%!!
This is the reason that CAD plots should not be "Scaled" in the field, unless their accuracy has been verified.
Typical "A" sheets, plus the base plans used by Engineers to produce "M", "P", "S", and "E" sheets, almost always have notes saying:
"Do Not Scale Drawings"

I always like to mention these simple, yet rarely explained points, to potential / future CAD users - especially those in transition from hand made drawings.

The main "Power" abilities of CAD techniques are those that relate to how things get drawn. Since the workspace is in a way "Virtual Reality", you can easily fix and edit lines, whereas hard copy would require erasures and regeneration of base templates for most revisions.
Also, there are many helpful "side applications" and math orientated things that can lower the externally generated calcs and work load to some minimum.

Now, since the CAD programs offer a new wealth of power, that could never be done with hand drawn sets [I had only dreamed of some ways to make CAD counterparts to hand drawings [Linked Image]], it adds complexity to the whole plan set!!!
The power in the CAD program becomes it's own enemy!!

So once again, I say that there is absolutely no required reason for anyone to drop their more familiar, well understood and most comfortable method of hand drafting, because they feel pressured to use CAD. If a client or architect can't supply one with a hard copy of at least the base plan, get it on a disk - send it out to be plotted, then work from it. Never change because someone says it's the only way or the best way to draw!!!

If one plans to convert to CAD, do so at a slow but steady pace. It will work out better in the long run if this approach is taken.
Classes or individual tutoring is almost crucial for the entry level user.

There are so many different ways to use and manipulate CAD, so there is a major benefit if one wishes to harness this potential power.
This gift can be your worst nightmare if left unchecked or uncontrolled [Linked Image]

Always keep this in mind - better yet, print this out in huge bold letters and tape it to your monitor!! Mine is hanging above the monitor on W/S #2 [Linked Image]

Scott SET

BTW: As-Builts are a great help, as long as you can find them on-site, plus they reflect the most recent work done. Otherwise, they are completely useless to anyone [except those that try to appear "important" by carrying around a non-relevant set of As-Builts.... seen it a dozen or more times, and it still makes me laugh!!].

Clients, on the other hand, seem to appreciate the "extra effort" put in when they receive an As-Built set. They feel like you have more involved than just "Making Money" [this is what I have heard - more like overheard].
We have several clients plus related contractors and vendors that really value the As-Built sets and have used them for references in the field.
Only these points is what keeps me generating in-depth As-Built sets.
Otherwise I would just be scribbling on some blueline copy page and giving them this, which would be equal to them as complete and complex CAD generated As-Builts.

Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!

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