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#13019 - 08/22/02 06:12 PM MC whips on ceiling grids
Cindy Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/01
Posts: 196
Loc: PDX, OR, US
so what do we call them now? luminaire whips?

do you interpret 110.11[or -11] to mean that any MC runs, including whips, have to be supported off of the ceiling grid to keep weight off of the grid or protect it from tile access abuses? or does 334-10 or 330.30 that says you don't need to support whips, mean that all bets are off when the MC is a whip, so lay the MC on the ceiling grid and ignore 110?

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#13020 - 08/22/02 07:24 PM Re: MC whips on ceiling grids
HotLine1 Offline

Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6805
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
As we see it here in NJ:
NO wiring of any type can "rest on the grid"
A "six foot whip", or MC from fixture to fixture, has to be supported. The means of support cannot be the ceiling grid support wires (unless it is listed). Using "bat wings" on the grid support wires gets you a red sticker.

On new commercial, or large renovations, we have the ceiling contractor install "extra" wires for our use, and use the listed Caddy clip (yellow) to secure "our wire" to the grid.

"Wires" laying on the grid is a "no-no". The offenders used to be the telco-data-alarm guys, until UCC started enforcing "Permits Required", now they have to take the heat, but that's another thread.

HotLine1
John
_________________________
John

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#13021 - 08/22/02 09:18 PM Re: MC whips on ceiling grids
Cindy Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/01
Posts: 196
Loc: PDX, OR, US
thanks john, thats the way i was taught, the intent being to keep cables from buckling the grids and make access reasonable

i asked the question because i had a guy today tell me he didn't have to support the whips off the grids, guess we'll see at inspection

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#13022 - 08/25/02 05:22 AM Re: MC whips on ceiling grids
Scott35 Offline

Broom Pusher and
Member

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 2724
Loc: Anaheim, CA. USA
Cindy,

Since you are another California based member, this dives into CEC and CBC more than NEC.

To amplify, we cannot use the wires supporting the T-Bar grid for strapping any of our conduits to, and we need to strap any conduits within 12" of an outlet, box or fixture when using flex or MC [you can get away with like 18" - 24" because there's no way to get whips out of the "Quick-Connect" and up a good 12" without strapping back that far!].

I know that you know this [sounds like Ralph talking to Ed on the Honeymooners...hee hee hee], so it's directed to the members outside CA / Shakey Town.

 Quote:

so what do we call them now? luminaire whips?

LOL!!!
I'm going to throw that one out next week!!!
Pardon Me, Do You Have Any Luminaire Whips?

Scott S.E.T.
_________________________
Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!

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#13023 - 08/25/02 02:17 PM Re: MC whips on ceiling grids
master66 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 260
Loc: Masontown, PA, USA
I often thought about submitting an exception to the rule about seperate supports above drop ceilings.

I was thinking that you should be allowed to use the "bat wing" clips to support whips used for "daisy chaining" between fixtures where the bat wing clip would only serve the purpose of keeping the MC off of the ceiling tile.

Very often my company had done small jewelery stores where almost every ceiling tile had a light, oops,I mean luminaire, installed in it. So what would the harm be in this case to simply use a batwing clip to hold up the MC if it passed by a grid wire?

Don't get me wrong. I support the use of dedicated supports for other conduit and wire, but for daisy chaining....?

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#13024 - 08/25/02 08:20 PM Re: MC whips on ceiling grids
HotLine1 Offline

Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6805
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
Master66:
I see your point in "what harm could it do...", and I guess that most or all of us could 'fess up that we "slipped a few by"

Yes, it takes time, and there is additional materials costs to install drop wires to support our cables; but it is spelled out clear, and we all have to live with it.

Like I posted earlier, IMHO the biggest offenders of the "drop ceiling" spider web/rat nest was the data/telco,alarm guys.
We had instances where the "big" telco co. did a install, and we gaot the red sticker!
"Cause it's wire and you have the electric permit" and "I can't give a violation to someone without a license" "there's no permit for telco" (NOW THERE IS).

BTW: How many of the members use drop wire to support "conduit" above a drop ceiling???

HotLine1
John
_________________________
John

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#13025 - 08/28/02 09:36 PM Re: MC whips on ceiling grids
NonLinearLoad Offline
Member

Registered: 03/23/02
Posts: 56
Loc: McHenry, IL. USA
Our company has not been busted yet for unsupported fixture whips yet. But, we have to use the hurricane clips on all corners of the fixture, and each fixture has to have a pencil wire support at two opposing corners. This is where the emt cut with a twisting hook saves a lot of ladder time. Then the whips are supported on the fixture wire, nice and close by.

And yes we use pencil wire with all of the approved fastners to pipe all of the ceiling work as well as necessary junctions for wall work.And if any of the other lazy folks try to borrow a little space on our support wires before rough and final inspection, the AHJ has a little piece of paper to help them learn a lesson.

[This message has been edited by NonLinearLoad (edited 08-29-2002).]

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#13026 - 08/29/02 12:42 AM Re: MC whips on ceiling grids
TE Offline
Member

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 37
Loc: USA
We require wires to the fixtures.
Siesmic wires/ we specify in our quotes they
are to be installed by the clg contractor.

We batwing our whips to those wires.

Sometimes needing a few extra wires, buying
lunch for the ceiling installer usually works
out.

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#13027 - 09/05/02 06:56 PM Re: MC whips on ceiling grids
Cindy Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/01
Posts: 196
Loc: PDX, OR, US
oops, i meant 300.11 [not 110.11].

so it sounds like california and new jersey stay off grids, but illinois doesnt, and here in oregon it depends on the inspector. i suppose this is like lots of nec code sections, it depends on which part of the code the inspectors think takes precedence.

300.11 Securing and Supporting.
(A) Secured in Place.
blah blah blah--- Cables and raceways shall not be supported by ceiling grids.

330.30 Securing and Supporting.
(B) Unsupported Cables. Type MC cable shall be permitted to be unsupported where the cable:
(2) Is not more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from the last point of support for connections within an accessible ceiling to luminaire(s) [lighting fixture(s)] or equipment

to me it says you dont need to support the mc whips, but if they do rest on a grid, according to my high school physics class, they are being supported by the grid which is a violation of 300.11.
am i looking at this wrong? i would just shut up and let this go but its not fun to have to go back and put these support wires in after an inspection fails. one time its ok and the next time its wrong.

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#13028 - 09/05/02 08:13 PM Re: MC whips on ceiling grids
George Corron Offline
Member

Registered: 05/16/01
Posts: 728
Loc: Lorton, Va USA
Cindy,
We absolutely require ALL wiring off ceiling grids. They will be supported by their own wire NOT the grid wire, haven't seen one yet that was rated for it, but acknowledge that it may be out there.

Why did that come about? Because of sloppy electrical work. Electricians came along after the grid man had leveled his ceiling, whipped bat wings around a tuned grid, and the ceiling was "dippy". We did that to ourselves.

The fact that I'm as guilty as anyone does NOT ease the pain.

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