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#125587 - 05/31/04 09:39 AM Should Obsolete Wiring Be Removed?
Joe Tedesco Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 3325
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts USA
_________________________
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

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#125588 - 05/31/04 04:20 PM Re: Should Obsolete Wiring Be Removed?
Electricmanscott Offline
Member

Registered: 01/12/02
Posts: 1478
Loc: Holden, MA USA
Obsolete can mean a couple of things. No longer in use, or outmoded in design , style or construction. For no longer in use I think we've been down that road. For the other meaning perhaps it should be replaced if there is an actual hazard.

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#125589 - 06/01/04 05:18 AM Re: Should Obsolete Wiring Be Removed?
Joe Tedesco Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 3325
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts USA
Attention NFPA and NEC Committee Members!

You should see the rest of the pictures I have, some even in your own back yard!

Come on JIM let's think about Life Safety!



Please! I am not interested in hearing why the NEC doesn't cover these hazards, I want you to do something about this soon.

The words are in the NEC in Article 80!

Not abandonded? Not Obsolete?

How about Dangerous?

 Quote:
80.9(B) Existing Installations.

Existing electrical installations that do not comply with the provisions of this Code shall be permitted to be continued in use unless the authority having jurisdiction determines that the lack of conformity with this Code presents an imminent danger to occupants.

Where changes are required for correction of hazards, a reasonable amount of time shall be given for compliance, depending on the degree of the hazard.


What is reasonable?
_________________________
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

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#125590 - 06/01/04 09:40 AM Re: Should Obsolete Wiring Be Removed?
pauluk Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/01
Posts: 7693
Loc: Norfolk, England
Joe,
Is any of the equipment pictured still energized, or is it all disconnected from any potential source of power?

If it's all isolated, then I don't see how it poses an "imminent danger to occupants," at least not from an electrical point of view.

I agree that's it ugly and I'd would like to see it removed, though.

By the way, is that green conductors on breakers in one of those pics?

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#125591 - 06/01/04 09:47 AM Re: Should Obsolete Wiring Be Removed?
Joe Tedesco Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 3325
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts USA
 Quote:
Joe,
Is any of the equipment pictured still energized, or is it all disconnected from any potential source of power?

Most all of this equipment was energized when I took the pictures.

If it's all isolated, then I don't see how it poses an "imminent danger to occupants," at least not from an electrical point of view.

I agree that's it ugly and I'd would like to see it removed, though.

By the way, is that green conductors on breakers in one of those pics?

Yes
_________________________
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

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#125592 - 06/01/04 11:01 PM Re: Should Obsolete Wiring Be Removed?
nesparky Offline
Member

Registered: 06/21/01
Posts: 650
Loc: omaha,ne
Quote
What is reasonable?

What ever the judge rules if and when an AHJ takes the property owner to court.
Let's face it until the AHJ's have the authority to inspect existing installations and are granted the legal authority to compel an owner to repair junk like this it does not matter what code says.

That said do you want the electrical inspector to come and inspect when ever he feels like it?
_________________________
ed

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#125593 - 06/25/04 11:18 AM Re: Should Obsolete Wiring Be Removed?
Theelectrikid Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 854
Loc: Levittown, PA
For the top picture, I hope someone doesn't reactivate that and add a new circuit wired with copper wiring. That main breaker says that it is wired with CU/AL (aluminum) wiring!
_________________________
Is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?

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#125594 - 06/25/04 03:05 PM Re: Should Obsolete Wiring Be Removed?
aland Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/04
Posts: 187
Loc: United Kingdom
Sorry to disagree with you on this one paul I think redundant wiring should be removed, especially in industrial / commercial installations it sems to be the norm to just pull the fuse or circ/ breaker and leave the cables connected for use at a later date. Its so easy to replace or energise the wrong breaker in a crowded board with potentially disasterouse consequences. If it is not in use clear it out thats what I say. The only exception I would make is if the circuit is padlocked off and identified clearly as redundant and required for future use.

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#125595 - 06/26/04 04:34 PM Re: Should Obsolete Wiring Be Removed?
John Steinke Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/01
Posts: 509
Loc: Reno,Nv., USA
Sorry, Joe, but I don't see any way of addressing these issues without giving the local AHJ power that would make a commisar jealous!

Let's face it, we can put in a beautiful system today, without there being any guarantees that it will be suitable for future needs (see NEC 90.1(B)), that it will be maintained or repaired, that the manufacturer will remain in business, or that all environmental hazards were adequately addressed.

In short, you can't make people care! I think that this issue is best served by our currently imperfect reliance on the market for competition and liability. We've certainly got several contemporary examples of places with draconian governments and suicidal wiring practices!

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#125596 - 06/27/04 03:35 AM Re: Should Obsolete Wiring Be Removed?
pauluk Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/01
Posts: 7693
Loc: Norfolk, England
 Quote:
it sems to be the norm to just pull the fuse or circ/ breaker and leave the cables connected for use at a later date. Its so easy to replace or energise the wrong breaker in a crowded board with potentially disasterouse consequences.

I agree with you there Alan. Just pulling the fuse at the panel and leaving the load end the circuit hanging is definitely bad, and something I've seen all too often.

But I don't see the point of ripping out wiring which might be useful again in the future so long as it poses no danger. I would isolate at the panel, make the distant end "safe" with suitable connectors, junction box etc. and tag the circuit as spare/not-in-use.

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