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#122310 - 10/26/05 12:46 AM Hot tub install - Separate Structure?
electure Offline


Member
Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 4259
Loc: Fullerton, CA USA
Quote:
This is a hot tub I installed a few years back. Located about 30 ft. from the house, it is a pre-fab unit (with a styrofoam "pad"). The "gazebo" is open all around, only acting to keep the sun off the cover. The gazebo is all wood.

Would you consider this to be a "seperate structure," like a detached garage, that would require a ground rod, in addition to the ground wire?

As a side note, I had needed to bring the power for this out one side of the house, up and across the roof, and back down. In the second pic, my pipe is a little to the right of the much more visible drain pipe, visible near the gardener's hat.


Renosteinke




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#122311 - 10/26/05 02:09 AM Re: Hot tub install - Separate Structure?
iwire Offline
Moderator
Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4391
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
Quote:
Would you consider this to be a "seperate structure," like a detached garage, that would require a ground rod, in addition to the ground wire?


Yes I would.

Article 100
Quote:
Structure. That which is built or constructed.
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Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
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#122312 - 10/26/05 02:16 PM Re: Hot tub install - Separate Structure?
Dnkldorf Offline
Member
Registered: 12/12/04
Posts: 1064
Loc: nowhere usa
Iwire, explain that one. We see a hot tub with a roof over it.

Do you consider a fish pond a structure. After all it is "constructed" and "built".

I would think a structure would be something that would keep out the elements of nature.
This wouldn't be.


Dnk.....


Dnk...
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#122313 - 10/26/05 02:48 PM Re: Hot tub install - Separate Structure?
iwire Offline
Moderator
Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4391
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
dnk IMO as far as the NEC is concerned that is a structure. The definition is what it is, no mention of keeping the elements out.

When the NEC states building I think of something that keeps the weather out.

When the NEC states structure I think of anything except a building.

To the NEC a sign or light post is a structure. If you doubt that take a look at 225.32 Exceptions 3 and 4.

Quote:
ARTICLE 225

II. More Than One Building or Other Structure

225.31 Disconnecting Means.
Means shall be provided for disconnecting all ungrounded conductors that supply or pass through the building or structure.

225.32 Location.
The disconnecting means shall be installed either inside or outside of the building or structure served or where the conductors pass through the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall be at a readily accessible location nearest the point of entrance of the conductors. For the purposes of this section, the requirements in 230.6 shall be permitted to be utilized.

Exception No. 3: For towers or poles used as lighting standards, the disconnecting means shall be permitted to be located elsewhere on the premises.

Exception No. 4: For poles or similar structures used only for support of signs installed in accordance with Article 600, the disconnecting means shall be permitted to be located elsewhere on the premises.


Poles for signs and lights are structures and without those exceptions would require a readily accessible disconnecting means at the poles themselves.

Bob




[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 10-26-2005).]
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Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
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#122314 - 10/26/05 02:53 PM Re: Hot tub install - Separate Structure?
iwire Offline
Moderator
Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4391
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
Quote:
Iwire, explain that one. We see a hot tub with a roof over it


For that you will have to ask the NEC, I did not write the short and sweet NEC definition of structure.

Bob
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Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
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#122315 - 10/26/05 03:08 PM Re: Hot tub install - Separate Structure?
Ryan_J Offline
Moderator
Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 1374
Loc: West Jordan, Utah, USA
If you call it a structure, are you going to install 225.31 disconnect on it?


BTW: I hate to say it, but I agree with Bob...it meets the definition of a structure.
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Ryan Jackson,
Salt Lake City
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#122316 - 10/26/05 03:31 PM Re: Hot tub install - Separate Structure?
iwire Offline
Moderator
Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4391
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
Quote:
If you call it a structure, are you going to install 225.31 disconnect on it?


Wouldn't there be one already for the tub?

I was wondering if this structure has one feeder or multiple branch circuits?

How about 225.39(D)?

Reno is probably sorry he asked now.
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Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
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#122317 - 10/26/05 03:54 PM Re: Hot tub install - Separate Structure?
Alan Belson Offline
Member
Registered: 03/23/05
Posts: 1803
Loc: Mayenne N. France
Gardener??!! What the Dickens you planting there- Jacks's Magic-Beanstalk beans?

Very nice erm...(thinks)..artifact! though, beautifull design.

Pardon a silly old bugger who's never had a bath in his garden in full view of the neighbours, but how do you get in that tub? I wouldn't fancy clambering over the side of that- it looks quite deep.

Alan
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Wood work but can't!
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#122318 - 10/26/05 05:55 PM Re: Hot tub install - Separate Structure?
e57 Offline
Member
Registered: 05/27/03
Posts: 2876
Loc: S.F.,CA USA
Yuop, I get the Landscrapers to do my trenching too!

NEC its a structure... That is if it has wiring in/on it. The tub, I consider seperate....

A leiniant AHJ would give you an OK on it, maybe. But if theres other electrical like say lights and outlets in it, its not only a structure but a range of other violations too. (Noticing the bar area on it.... It just screams "rope light".)

Personally, I would have done a UFA in the pad and bonded it to the tub, but thats me....
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Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
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#122319 - 10/26/05 07:09 PM Re: Hot tub install - Separate Structure?
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
Member
Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 5316
Loc: Blue Collar Country
First of all- I posted these to get a discussion going....looks like it worked!

The gardener is not planting anything....he's cursing me for wanting a real 24" deep trench for my pipe!

The front of the tub- which has the panels that remove to give access to the pumps and such- is usually blocked by a redwood stair (not present in pic) that makes entry quite easy.

The tub has, accessible to the occupant, pneumatic push button controls. While they will operate the tub, I don't think they qualify as a "disconnect."
BTW, this is one of the rare UL listed tubs out there.


Another code authority (from hurricane country) has asserted that a ground rod at a light pole make no sense- but, if a pole is a structure, it would seem to be required.

Some folks use SE or NMC for their tubs. I believe that the down-sized ground wire is NOT allowed for a tub. Comments?

I have it, on good authority, that this tub has a rated capacity of 1 owner and 3 blondes.


[This message has been edited by renosteinke (edited 10-27-2005).]
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