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#11993 - 07/28/02 03:49 PM New Church Wiring
Fred Offline

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 461
Loc: Straughn, IN 47387
Several months ago I quoted wiring a new church. The church decided that a couple of electricians who attended would do the wiring. There is only 1Ø available and I had proposed a 800A entrance to switchgear and (3) 200A panels with one located in the gymnasium/sanctuary, one in the kitchen/mechanical area, and one in the educational wing. This would leave allowances for one more in the sanctuary to be built later. I had proposed to run sched 40 PVC in the slab with RMC sweeps and RMC emerging from the slab to each panel. I say I proposed all of this because there was no service or distribution engineering on the prints. Just a note saying service entrance engineering to be completed on site by electrical contractor. Well, the electrician from the church calls me today asking for advice. It seems the general contractor has already poured the slabs and framed all the walls and roofed the structure and you guessed it, not one piece of pipe in the slab. My question is: Can RNC be ran through the attic spaces and down the interior walls to carry feeders to the distribution panels? I don't believe they can. I base my opinion on 352.12(F) of the 2002 NEC. I see the only exception as 518.4(A), encasing it in 2" of concrete. Any opinions would be appreciated

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#11994 - 07/28/02 05:06 PM Re: New Church Wiring
amp-man Offline

Registered: 06/23/01
Posts: 144
Loc: Sacto, California US of A
And if this isn't your job, and it isn't your Church, wouldn't this be the volunteer electrician's problem? And if he doesn't know how to deal with the situation, should he be wiring the facility? There will be a lot of people at risk if the job is done by an unqualified person who creates serious safety hazards.

Don't be an enabler.


#11995 - 07/28/02 06:07 PM Re: New Church Wiring
scjohn Offline

Registered: 07/04/02
Posts: 76
Loc: charleston, SC, USA
'Rnc"? Are you talking about pvc, ent.?Ridgid non-metallic conduit should be exceptable,Electrical non-metallic conduit would not if the ambiant temp. in the attic is 122 F. or more.Nor would it be exceptable around here if it is more than 3 stories.How about good old fasion emt? I know it can be a pain, but when in doubt...

#11996 - 07/28/02 07:12 PM Re: New Church Wiring
Electricmanscott Offline

Registered: 01/12/02
Posts: 1478
Loc: Holden, MA USA
I have to agree with amp man on this one. Sounds like a big headache is in the works.

#11997 - 07/28/02 07:37 PM Re: New Church Wiring
arseegee Offline

Registered: 01/28/02
Posts: 321
Loc: Statesboro, GA USA
I had a round or two with a GC over a job like this a year ago. Same type deal, no plans, design/build, lets play contractor and engineer. All I can tell you is stand your ground on this. This will fall under "places of assembly" where if you go the EPVC route, you'll have to stick to the fire rating requirements. But as long as you have a 15 minute barrier the EPVC will fly. I ended up going RMC and EMT and they paid a pretty penny for not getting the slab work done. All I can say is call the inspector and fill him in on the situation.

#11998 - 07/28/02 08:33 PM Re: New Church Wiring
Fred Offline

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 461
Loc: Straughn, IN 47387
scjohn, I'm talking about Rigid Non-Metallic Conduit as defined in art. 352- RNC. What part of the articles I referenced makes you think RNC is acceptable for "Places of Assembly"?

amp-man, They want to hire me to install the service entrance and distribution panels. I am just shoring up my position to shoot him down tomorrow when I meet with him. I want to be able to give specifics as to why they can or can't do options he is likely to propose. This guy isn't a DIYer, he's a card-carrying IBEW member. If they want to hire me to fix this mess I want to be able to tell them what their code compliant options are and how much it's going to cost them. And whether I take the job or not, the inspector is going to be briefed thoroughly on the entire situation.

#11999 - 07/29/02 06:39 AM Re: New Church Wiring
mamills Offline

Registered: 11/30/01
Posts: 739
Loc: Wharton, Texas, USA
Fred: My two cents worth...
First, it seems that there are serious communication problems between the GC and the electrician/attendees. Is this likely to continue, and will other trades also be affected by this?

Second, is burial of the feeders from the MDP to a suitable entry point outside each area of the building an option,in lieu of using the attic?

Mike (mamills)

#12000 - 07/29/02 08:33 AM Re: New Church Wiring
electure Offline


Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 4227
Loc: Fullerton, CA USA
Out here, you can't use PVC in that manner (I'm in So CA). I'd figure EMT overhead.
I did a "Church from Heck" in Huntington Beach.
They're still calling asking why they can't plug in 12 coffee pots @ once, and expect us to not bill them for the tripped c/b.
They did their own drywall, with a "volunteer" crew. It cost them about 6 months,and they drove screws (2-1/2") through lots of my M/C cable out of stupidity.

#12001 - 08/02/02 09:29 PM Re: New Church Wiring
scjohn Offline

Registered: 07/04/02
Posts: 76
Loc: charleston, SC, USA
518-4(b)(c) '99 as I am still behind the times. Heck, I still have my '93 in the back of the truck. As Arseegee said it is really a fire rated issue. Here, in all commercial applications they require 5/8 fire rock, which allows us to use non-mettalic conduit, except when penetrating the wall. It does depend on what your AHJ requires, because if I read the code right you can use romex???
I know this is a late post, but interested in the final result.


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