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#116031 - 02/06/04 05:09 AM Then I got thrown out!
electure Offline


Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 4226
Loc: Fullerton, CA USA
I went to this 12 story office building to get some info so we could engineer a TI for a new tenant. I lifted a couple of ceiling tiles and...Voila!

I mentioned to the building engineer that some repair work might also be needed to bring the existing work up to Code.

He went crazy, told me I didn't know what I was talking about, had a bad attitude, and shouldn't criticize other people's work.

I've since learned that I am no longer allowed in his building. (Although we do have a crew out there now, and the building owner is being charged for the necessary repairs).

Do you guys just keep your mouths shut when you see things like this?? How do you break the bad news??...S

[This message has been edited by electure (edited 02-06-2004).]

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#116032 - 02/06/04 05:54 AM Re: Then I got thrown out!
Trumpy Offline


Registered: 07/05/02
Posts: 8532
Loc: SI,New Zealand
What a mess mate!.
Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to inform the proper people as to the standard of thier installed equipment.
I've done it a few times before and I dear say that it's bound to crop up again.
I must say that you really need to show some real tact when letting people know of news like this, but also telling them straight-up what the problem is, if you do this you can't be blamed, you are only doing your job!.
BTW, Scott, cool pictures!.
Let's face it, these days if you're not young, you're old - Red Green grin

#116033 - 02/06/04 12:36 PM Re: Then I got thrown out!
HotLine1 Offline


Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6792
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
Unfortunatly, situations like the great pics do exist, and are found by EC's and AHJ's. Usually during 'service' work, or renovation jobs.

Two landlords/prop mgt co's that I work for address this when we find it. Depending on the extent, a correction plan is approved. If the space is due for renovation, it's not uncommon to electrically 'gut' the ceiling space, and start over. MINOR items are repaired as needed right away. Sometimes, replacing a 2x4 or two results in 8 hrs of clean-up. Once an area is renovated or cleaned-up, the tenants are informed that any work they do must be inspected, and any future violations will be repaired at the tenants expense (from security deposits)

As an AHJ, if the 'existing' work has violations, I cannot officially cite the EC. I usually leave a violation notice for the landlord to have it corrected, and MOST of them comply. Dependent on the severity of the vio., if it's ignored, a letter of violation, and a $250-$500 fine can be imposed. That usually results in compliance.


#116034 - 02/06/04 05:24 PM Re: Then I got thrown out!
jeffrose Offline

Registered: 02/03/04
Posts: 33
Loc: Boston MA

This is what happens when a contractor is afraid to charge a customer for quality work.

#116035 - 02/06/04 07:05 PM Re: Then I got thrown out!
DougW Offline

Registered: 06/08/03
Posts: 1083
Loc: North Chicago, IL
Work like this (and an owner / manager who doesn't want to spend the money to correct the noncompliance) gets the big disclaimer:

New work performed by EC will be done to applicable Codes; however, EC WILL NOT BE RESPONSIBLE for previously installed (existing) non-compliant installations noted below. EC has recommended correction of said defects, and owner/manager hereby declines to have such corrective work performed at this time. Owner/Manager releases EC from any liability for secondary hazards property damage, or personal injury arising from said noncompliant wiring.

Have your owner/manager sign or initial by your notes - you know, the (well documented) mess you found when you got there, and clearly indicate in your invoice / work orders / "write ups" what you found, what you did (and how you did it), and that you advised folks to get their feces coagulated.

As they told us in Paramedic school: "If you didn't write it, you didn't do it"

That way, if the "handyman" work catastrophically fails, and they try to pin it on you, you can say "told ya", and get called as witness for the insurance company.

(Of course, if it's your work that fails.. well... there's a great future in the ocmputer industry!)

[This message has been edited by DougW (edited 02-06-2004).]

#116036 - 02/06/04 07:22 PM Re: Then I got thrown out!
Scott35 Offline

Broom Pusher and

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 2724
Loc: Anaheim, CA. USA
Scott (Electure);

Nice pics of some really crappy work! Almost makes it a contradiction to have good pictures of bad items, but that's another topic
(for the "Philosophy / Metaphysics forum area... ...).

Must have caught this Bldg. Engineer on one of his bad days, or you simply made it aware to him that someone has found his "Handywork" to be of extremely low Workmanship value, but very high in "Sucks" value
(more than likely, that person installed or altered what's shown in the pics).

Funny that you were 86'ed from the place, only for making the Maintenence lead person aware of pending disaster.

I would bet the Property Management firm would love to hear about this one!
The sounds of yelling on the phone to that person, followed by an equal 86'ing of that person come to mind.
All this followed up by a Classified Ad submitted, seeking a replacement for his position.

BTW: Is this 12 story anywhere near us - like within 15 Miles or so? Curious to where it is, so I can come by and 86 you from the place too! ... seriously, where is this building?

Per the 3rd image, I really cannot figure this one out!
Why in the world would anyone terminate 5 MC cables to a single 2x4 - and all at the same end!
That Ballast cover must be screwed into the fixture, else it would spring right off the recess clips/cleats.

Love the mounting method and strapping shown in pic #2.
The #12 THHN cu EMT strap shown in pic #1 is a nice touch.

Geez, don't you just love "The Mystery Behind The Ceilings" part of T.I. design surveys or installations?

At least most of the items in these pics will be eliminated at Demo, for this T.I.

Why I do not see a giant web of Comm/Data cables thrown all over the place, is a new one on me!

Good luck on this Design / Build project, Scott.

Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!

#116037 - 02/09/04 11:31 AM Re: Then I got thrown out!
kale Offline

Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 168
Bet there isn't any ground contact to that painted yellow can in pic 1. Grounding locknuts anyone?

#116038 - 02/09/04 03:04 PM Re: Then I got thrown out!
Bjarney Offline

Registered: 04/10/02
Posts: 2561
Loc: West-Southern Inner-Northeast ...
Addressing electure’s original pics... there seems to be plenty of 'ostrich head’ property managers/building owners that have their heads buried deeply in the sand—making the electrical profession {to them} a big bunch of scamming cheats and liars.

{In the first pic} Besides—any rising flames and smoke from the wiring below will be easily and safely ‘scooped up’ in the open-bottomed box above.

#116039 - 02/09/04 07:53 PM Re: Then I got thrown out!
electure Offline


Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 4226
Loc: Fullerton, CA USA
This is all, "later than original". The original company that did the building did a good job! (mr. oliver).
I'm sure the yellow box had a cover, 'cause I found it on a tile about 4' away.
So, I'm pretty much out front with my analysis, and some people love me for it, and others absolutely hate me.
My Q is how do you tell them?

Scott 35, 55 to Macarthur, look right, brown & lotsa' glass. I'm sure he'd be glad to throw you out, too. ...S

#116040 - 02/10/04 08:39 PM Re: Then I got thrown out!
Nick Offline

Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 603
Loc: Riverside, CA
I know the building! The 4000A buss duct riser failed I think twice within the first year or two of operation. I think the first time a fire sprinkler leak puddled up around the floor opening and made it's way into a joint causing the impending doom. That was corrected by making curbs around the openings on all floors. I don't remember what caused the next failure but I do remember when it was. I had just moved and the shop didn't have my new number so I missed out on all the over time. I didn't work on the original building but I did work on a TI in there. Funny thing is I am working with the guy who was GF on that project right now. If I remember correctly we did do allot of the original TI work in this building and while I hope this isn't a result of anything we did it honestly wouldn't surprise me knowing the Foreman that did the TI and the Superintendent at the time. (It's been 11 years)They are both long gone and things have change allot for the better.

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